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RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 3:47:23 PM

Proprietrix

Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WikedUncle
What I have noticed online, and just in the past few years, is how the list above more and more leaves out the value that is the glue holding the rest together: tolerance or open-mindedness.

Some of us would argue that it is the heightened level of tolerance and open-mindedness that has contributed to the loss of the aforementioned values.

I have a difficult time building a trusting relationship with a group of people who may or may not share my morals and beliefs about very important things in my life. This "all inclusive" attitude of tolerance and acceptance leaves the door wide open to those whom we vehemently disagree with on a fundamental level.

I am much more comfortable calling a dozen people who share my beliefs and values, my co-lifestylists, than I am saying that this "online community" of people who happen to think of themselves as kinky are my co-lifestylists. I can find my place in small groups who practice exclusivity. I have a hard time even wanting to claim some of the people I've seen on the internet as even remotely sharing a similar interest in anything whatsoever.

I've seen some real sick bastards proclaim some immoral things on the internet, in the name of "the lifestyle". And then witnessed a parade of agreement from others. Exclusivity provides a group with rules and boundaries and definitions that keep the unwanted out.

I'm all for exclusivity. I think we should have clearly defined subgroups in this "community", so we truly can find like-minded peers without having to paddle through things we find reprehensible.

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to WikedUncle)

Post #: 101

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 4:03:10 PM

ShiftedJewel

Posts: 2492
Joined: 12/2/2004
Status: offline

I agree Proprietrix. I would offer to warn you that most people don't like the idea of "clearly defined" anythings.. but I'm sure you already know that. But, on the off chance that you can get the idea going... sign me and mine up. We're with you on that one.

Jewel

_____________________________

Don't ask, trust me, you won't like the answer... no one ever does.

(in reply to Proprietrix)

Post #: 102

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 4:28:23 PM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Develop some tolerance, one day you too will be one of us" old timers" and want somebody to respectfully listen to your version of the good old days.

The reality is that things always simply shift, usually in highly predictable patterns. The reality is that perceptions are what's changing- not the actual state of affairs in terms of values and responsibilities.

True things do shift in patterns; this does not mean that the people in each generation do not experience the very real nostalgia for the good old days. Their sentiments are quite real to them, as they probably will be to you someday. Something you seem to discount frequently simply because the phrase "it used to be better back when" is apparently a trigger to you.

You are wrong on the values not changing though; people’s values and beliefs are in constant state of flux. In the 50’s nice girls did not get pregnant out of wedlock, now it is so commonplace you can go to a sperm bank as a single female and get pregnant without raising so much as an eyebrow. Interracial marriage used to be strictly taboo, now it happens everyday. Being homosexual was something you whispered about, now the gay community proclaims their orientation proudly in a parade.
.

quote:

But that's a far cry from a very typical and very old complaint that has no real meaning behind it.

Ok, at this point I’d like to ask everybody who jumped in to tell me how what I said about the good old days being better to sit up and pay close attention; here is what I said copied from the original post

quote:

Some things were better, some were worse;

quote:

LuckyAlbatross

I'm more than happy to listen to people's actual accounts of history. I make a point of trying to do so at events and meeting people.

You almost got it here (keep paying attention everybody). My post was preaching tolerance and patience. Do not be so sure due to patterns, something you read or one person’s opinion of any given era that is was better or worse. Either way in order to make a completly informed opinion you would have had to have been there. For some it may have been better, for some it may have been worse.

Either way give us old-timers the right to our say without immediately jumping down our throats, or being quite so rude and obnoxious when we recall our glory days with nostalgia. Maybe, just maybe all our brains aren’t addled; you might learn something from us.

Youth is lovely, but we all age, give the respect you may one day hope for yourself.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 103

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 4:40:58 PM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

I was there. Leather bar/Triangle Club in Providence. Pre-AIDS Hellfire in NYC. Got the t-shirt and she's right. "The good ole days weren't really that good."

In your opinion, which you are entitled too. I would defend anyone's right to their opinion irregardless of whether or not i agreed with them.

One of my points was that LA had no first hand knowlegde to base this on. Her opinions were strictly based on second hand information at best.

quote:

I don't find LA at all disrespectful of people regardless of age, but she can be a little short when people try to create a world that never existed so they can proclaim how much better they are than the new folks.

Her comments were more than a little rude due to it touching on one of her triggers,as you yourself observed.

How exactly do you or LA know the"world" this gentleman was speaking of never existed? Maybe for him and many others it did.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 104

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 4:46:53 PM

ScooterTrash

Posts: 1407
Joined: 1/24/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline

Reading through all of the varied posts on this thread, is if nothing else, an interesting read. Has the internet killed the values of BDSM? Killed is perhaps extreme, assisted in watering it down somewhat, perhaps. It's added a multitude of opinions, that is for sure. As many people will be dismayed at what it has done as there will be those who applaud it. Reading through the "good old days" posts it is apparent that memories are different depending on where you were at any given time. I don't know that whether or not those memories were good, bad, or in between is even relevant, it is whether anyone will listen through the media of the internet and capitalize on those experiences, that is the point. They were what they were to each individual who experienced them, the value of those experiences is the point. In between those shoes that stuck to the floor or those fond memories of a first flogging, there is information that could be put to great use if passed on. By the same token, when it is passed on it should not be regarded simply as an opinion, if it is a real life experience, it should be tucked away as information to be used at a later date. Certainly you have to weigh in your own mind if it is real or just someone making it up, but such is the risk of any communication. Yes, all....and I do mean all of the people who post on here are nothing but someone on the other side of the screen, even the one's who are very quick to point that out, like they are something different. At some point, if the internet is going to be useful, you do have to drop your guard down a little and listen or teach, whatever your particular skill is at that time. NO, the internet is not killing anything, but those who choose not to use it as a valuable communication tool....are killing a golden opportunity. There is the chance to learn, to not make the same mistake someone else already did and perhaps not to have to keep reinventing the proverbial mousetrap over and over again. Personally, I don't care if you started into this 25 years ago, or 1 year ago...if you show courtesy and respect, I have no issue at all utilizing the internet as a tool to exchange ideas and experiences. On the other hand, when it used negatively as a communication tool to ridicule and condemn ideas simply because they don't agree with preconceived thoughts based on nothing but, well preconceived ideas...then the loss is obvious.

_____________________________

Formal symbolic representation of qualitative entities is doomed to its rightful place of minor significance in a world where flowers and beautiful women abound.
-Albert Einstein

(in reply to SirAndGentleman)

Post #: 105

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 4:51:25 PM

twicehappy

Posts: 2706
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

LOLOFUCKINLOLOL--
When you find me in your collar(think Ragnarok here)...

Well, until the immolation of the gods then.

Until the Gotterdammerering then, i shall see you when Fenrir stalks Odin.

As i have made a friend of the forums god of humor, our brother Loki, i shall be there standing with him against Heimdall.

_____________________________

Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

The human heart is not a finite container but an ever expanding universe with all the stars contained there in.

(in reply to mnottertail)

Post #: 106

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 5:31:38 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WikedUncle

I suppose that's the other extreme of the pendulum. I had less luck than John Warren getting past the gatekeepers of the gay clubs of the 1970s, but then I was in hidebound old Boston. That exclusionism isn't a happy memory.

I was lucky in that my play partners were a lesbian couple. In those days, lesbians were welcome at the leather bars as a beard should the cops come knocking. I was sorta like the little puppy brought in by a favorite relative. "Ok he can stay but if he messes on the carpet..............."

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to WikedUncle)

Post #: 107

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 5:44:42 PM

BlkTallFullfig

Posts: 5585
Joined: 6/25/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ShiftedJewel
I agree Proprietrix. I would offer to warn you that most people don't like the idea of "clearly defined" anythings.. but I'm sure you already know that. But, on the off chance that you can get the idea going... sign me and mine up. We're with you on that one.

Jewel

I'd join the clearly defined group as well... Knowing where I stand in relation to others, and vice versa is an enormous relief to the anxiety I would otherwise experience. M

_____________________________

a.k.a. SexyBossyBBW
""Touching was, and still is, and will always be, the true revolution" Nikki Giovanni

(in reply to ShiftedJewel)

Post #: 108

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 6:35:46 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

Twice,

That high horse you ride around must be built with Japanese parts...

Nobody attacked him because he "was there"...at least I didn't and I don't think most of the others did as well. I don't think this guy got any closer than driving by a leather bar and wacking off in his car before driving home to the wife and kids. His little "you should fuck me because I come from the old days" routine is tiresome.

Where is the honor and integrity to walking into a new place/bar, etc. and proclaiming we all suck because we weren't doing this 35+ years ago? Where is the modesty? Where is any sort of worthwhile virtue in what he did?

Did he come in and share this vast font of knowledge and experience he must "oh so shirley" possess? Did he offer us his deep insight based on decades of play? Nope, he just launched into a pathetic little screed.

Sorry, he and you can kiss my young ass. Also, and if the end of the world comes, and we two were the last ones left, I would use my collar to hang myself before letting you sully it.

(in reply to BlkTallFullfig)

Post #: 109

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 6:45:23 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

The internet isn't the antichrist; it's a fucking tool. Like a wrench (spanner to you). Some people use it to build things; others use it to bash heads in.

lol .... "a fucking tool"

mmmmmmmmmm oh I miss read this... thought you where talking about the OP... but your talking about the internet....

mmmmmmmmm I like how I read it better!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to JohnWarren)

Post #: 110

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 6:52:17 PM

Proprietrix

Posts: 756
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Ohio/West Virginia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrappyDom
Twice......................

Wow CrappyDom. .... I usually like your posts. They are straightforward, to the point, and humorous.
But that was just kinda mean. Both to the OP and TwiceHappy.

(Let's not all forget that this lovely forum comes fully equipped with an ignore button. It just takes one little click to make all your enemies disappear.)

_____________________________

IMO, IMHO, YMMV, AFAIK, to me, I see it as, from my perspective, it's been my experience, I only speak for myself, (and all other disclaimers here).

(in reply to CrappyDom)

Post #: 111

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 6:52:21 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy
Develop some tolerance, one day you too will be one of us" old timers" and want somebody to respectfully listen to your version of the good old days.

It's called understanding history and human patterns.

Every single generation of every single culture has complained about the "new generation" being uppity youngsters losing all sense of responsibility and "the good ole days" being forgotten memories. Trust me, you can find examples of it in ancient greek texts and beyond.

This is just another incarnation of that. I don't need to have been in the kinky scene in the 70s any more than I need to have been in the serfs scene hundreds of years ago. Every generation has its group who thinks that the world peaked with them and is going all to hell afterwards.

The reality is that things always simply shift, usually in highly predictable patterns. The reality is that perceptions are what's changing- not the actual state of affairs in terms of values and responsibilities.

I'm more than happy to listen to people's actual accounts of history. I make a point of trying to do so at events and meeting people. But that's a far cry from a very typical and very old complaint that has no real meaning behind it.

very well said...

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)

Post #: 112

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 6:59:11 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

One of my points was that LA had no first hand knowlegde to base this on. Her opinions were strictly based on second hand information at best.

So she has no first hand Knowledge of the good ole days... so does a person need to have first hand knowledge before such opinion can be consider even close to valid? If that is the case... lets throw out all the history books... really now... what good are they but second knowledge at best.!

Fact is... we don't have to experience things first hand to have a valid and even accurate opinions of issues we didn't witness first hand.

In case you miss the point... "the good ole days" well they are like any other day... Past Present or Future!

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 113

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 7:12:51 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: twicehappy

Youth is lovely, but we all age, give the respect you may one day hope for yourself.

Respect is Earned... Not given Blindly as you would seem to like. Frankly, Lucky shows alot of respect to those of her choosing and that earned it to the standards that she establishes. Don't you think that one should choose who and how they give respect.... Sorry I am not one to give shallow respect just because someone is a old fart. Frankly the OP isn't that old... hell he is only a few years older than myself...I still consider myself a young asshole.

I think people like John Warren..(a really old fart *G*) should be given respect just because he is old.... No I think individuals like him would like respect for HIS character, his successes, his values, his principles.... all of which are not age specific!

Yes youth is lovely... god... I hope I stay as young as I feel.... and will give respect to those that earn it be they Old or Young.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to twicehappy)

Post #: 114

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 7:17:29 PM

Esmeralda

Posts: 2
Joined: 11/9/2005
Status: offline

No, the Internet has killed nothing; it has made much possible. In a pre-Internet
world, I would never have been a domme. I would have had fantasies, but never
acted on them. The Internet has done much to hurt me, but BDSM has been its
gift. .....Maitresse

(in reply to SirAndGentleman)

Post #: 115

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 7:51:03 PM

JohnWarren

Posts: 3807
Joined: 3/18/2005
From: Delray Beach, FL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
I think people like John Warren..(a really old fart *G*)

You're just saying that because my first nipple clips were triobites.... live ones.

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to KnightofMists)

Post #: 116

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 7:55:27 PM

Kidless

Posts: 104
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline

Whats this true values stuff? It's a sex game people.........and the only rules are the ones partners agree to play by.

Maybe you can take it as all sorts of sacred and serious,but what is it really? You meet someone,you got somthing in your head you want to do-you go for it when it clicks to getting that taken care of.

What really takes me as funny is this....all of the people that yap away about thier rule books-then they get a stiffy for someone. Poof,where did it go?

Forgotten.

(in reply to SirAndGentleman)

Post #: 117

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 7:57:09 PM

Lordandmaster

Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline

Now there's a popular attitude...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kidless

It's a sex game

(in reply to Kidless)

Post #: 118

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 8:01:10 PM

Kidless

Posts: 104
Joined: 5/4/2006
Status: offline

look at the end result,and you see what I mean.

Why undergo an emotional implosion every 6 months to a year..over WHAT?

Some fantasy you created in your head?

Check the boards-and see how right I am on this one.

WAAAAA!!!!!!!!!

< Message edited by Kidless -- 5/4/2006 8:02:24 PM >

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 119

RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM - 5/4/2006 8:01:46 PM

CrappyDom

Posts: 1883
Joined: 4/11/2006
From: Sacramento
Status: offline

quote:

What really takes me as funny is this....all of the people that yap away about thier rule books-then they get a stiffy for someone. Poof,where did it go?

Forgotten.

You have a beautiful way with words...

(in reply to Kidless)

Post #: 120

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