Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM

Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (Full Version)

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SirAndGentleman -> Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:01:47 PM)
When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness. I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:07:26 PM)
The good ole days weren't really that good. Enjoy the feeling of superiority though. Us darn kids who got no respect and no sense of responsibility will keep going until we get old enough to start talking about how great everything was "back in our day."

darq -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:07:42 PM)
I dont think you can blame the deterioration of values solely on the internet. Lets face it, BDSM is not the only aspect of our lives that comes with its own set of values. These days, having values, morals, scruples ... Is just not considered cool by the great majority of human beings. (I'm mostly talking about people who live in the US and other similarly developed countries.) The internet has made access to things like BDSM more readily available and I'm sure that it was contributed at least a little. However, we've been on a downhill slide for several decades now. I think the blame lies on the people involved ... Those who treat anything involving responsibility as a game and those who allow it to continue. That means myself as well ... I carry part of the blame. So do you ...

Phoenixandnika -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:14:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirAndGentleman When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness. I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues. The interent does not differ from real life. BDSM and other alternative lifestylers are not different from "the vanilla world". You will find liars. You will find cheaters. You will find abusers. You will find conartists. You will find close minded folks. You will find whiners. You will find wankers. You will find pedaphiles. You will find creeps. You will find geeks. You will find things that irritate the heck out of you. You will find things that you enjoy. You will find things that shock you. You will find stupid people. You will find people who have different views about the bdsm than you. You will find people who judge you. You will find people who accept you. This is life. I will NEVER understand why people are so amazed that these things good and bad are found via the internet. After all are we not all people, flaws and all?Do you really think that those flaws go away the moment you turn your computer on or log into CM or any other forum? Take the good with the bad. Blessed Be, Phoenix's Nika

MsMacComb -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:17:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The good ole days weren't really that good. Enjoy the feeling of superiority though. Us darn kids who got no respect and no sense of responsibility will keep going until we get old enough to start talking about how great everything was "back in our day." Nice work on proving the guys point.

Littlepita -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:19:32 PM)
Online BDSM worked for me. Of course I play by the rules and so does my Sir. We take this lifestyle very seriously and did so even when we were brand new on IM chatting for the first time. We are still learning and growing together now that we are living together. I agree with others that people are people rather online or real life. Some will lie and pretend and some will not.

thetammyjo -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:25:13 PM)
I've talked to folks who've been part of those "good old days" and they tell me about drug use, forced prosititution, beatings to the point of needing to go to the hospital but hey, you're just a slave so you can suffer, etc. Here's a book about those wonderful days if anyone is interested: "To Love, To Obey, To Serve: Diary of an Old Guard Slave" by V.M. Johnson People are people. Some have honor and some do not. Some just want quick sex and some want relationships. Some want to be themselves and some want to belittle others to make themselves feel good. The only thing I can think of that has changed is that more people have access to information now and can claim to be doing BDSM more publicly via the internet but had no contact with a living human being. I think problems seem worse because the numbers involved are greater.

TallDarkAndWitty -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:27:40 PM)
Yes...yes it has. Is that what you want to hear? Taggard

BitaTruble -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:30:19 PM)
quote: I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. I understand from where you are speaking, but I do disagree. It's not the Internet that's the problem. It's the fact that you are more aware of those who don't hold the same values you hold. Such has always existed, will always exist, but the Internet allows an access that heretofore was unknown. The 'players' wouldn't go to the clubs, put ads into fetish papers to seek partners, etc., so they were unseen by those of us who attended or joined places like TES and Janus. Now with the Internet, they've simply been given a voice and visibility they did not once enjoy. Celeste

TheShadows -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:35:27 PM)
I can't help but be very curious about "the good old days", as some refer to it. I want to know about our community history. I like to know where I fit into the chain of events. I've done my fair share of research on this topic. Everything I've read points to the fact that BDSM, S&M, and D/s was very unorganized back in those beginning times. Which leads me to believe that there were never any absolute values that *everyone* went by. There still aren't. So, that's a moot point, IMO. "True values" are subjective. Has the internet devalued BDSM? he internet is only a tool. IMO, it's the people who use it to hurt, abuse, and exploit others that has devalued BDSM, based on my own set of "Lifestyle Values". As always, YMMV.

puella -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:41:25 PM)
I agree with Bita, and would add that it's a lot easier to blame what you percieve as a loss to something that is non-tangeable... the illusive internet, spreading evil, in it's many manifestations (okay so that might be a bit strong) than it is to realize.. chances are all the things you think you see and blame on the internet, were actually there before it.. The internet just allows you access to a greater database of people.. so you see more people, and interract with more people now, via that medium than you did just hanging out in your local BDSM group, etc.

LuckyAlbatross -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:44:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MsMacComb Nice work on proving the guys point. Yup, we all know I'm just the most disrespectful, rude, ignorant, closed minded, lying player around.

Ceyx -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:45:01 PM)
Insofar as I met miss via the internet, and it's an important tool and medium for our relationship, I obviously can't agree that it's somehow killed the values of honesty, trust, safety and open-mindedness. We're honest with each other and we trust one another. We go out of our way to be careful. We're open-minded, and hope that others will be open-minded about us in return. The internet greases the wheels of communication. It puts you in contact more easily with a wider group of people, some of whom may not hold the values you'd like. It is less easily policed and acculturated than a local group would be, so you're likely to see a greater diversity of opinion and practice. That in itself may be disconcerting to someone who's used to things being a certain way.

CrappyDom -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:45:34 PM)
Oh yes, the "good old days"... If anyone every slaps a "true" label on me I will slice them open and eat their liver raw. No gay man ever fucked over a lover for a younger hotter stud. No hot young stud got away with things that someone not so hot was made to pay for. Nodoby ever put up with a leatherman simply because he had a fabulous dungeon to play in. Nobody acted like a pompous ass in the old days, just ask Jay Wiseman about why he was kicked out of Gemini or any of the early politics of the Society of Janus. No dominant running a group would ever break up a marriage, one that had kids, just to get at that hot young woman he has always wanted. Nope none of the above would ever happen in the "glorious old days" of which I belonged so you should get on your knees and suck my cock even though I am a shriveled old man who couldn't get it up back then either. aaaahhhhh, I feel much better now. And people wonder why I would banish the world "true" from the S&M lexicon!

slaveladyj -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:50:52 PM)
I think the internet has given many a chance to learn, explore and grow, Speaking completely for myself, my fantasies would have always remained fantasies without it. I never would have openly discussed with anyone my deepest darkest desires if not for places like collarme. And opening up here, has enable me to open up in life too. The internet most certainly can be misused by many, not just those involved in bdsm. But those who value the things you listed are the ones that do benefit the most from forums like this. I have tried several other bdsm sites, and must say, this is the only one I feel comfortable in. I don't feel I've been judge here.

Lashra -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:51:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross The good ole days weren't really that good. Enjoy the feeling of superiority though. Us darn kids who got no respect and no sense of responsibility will keep going until we get old enough to start talking about how great everything was "back in our day." NO they werent and now isnt so hot either, humans being humans things will always be flawed. I don't think the OP is trying to be superior so much as to voicing their opinion, something that I've noted isnt too popular here or on most web sites. But alas we are allowed to do it as long as we do it within the forum rules. As for the darned kids I have no problem with those younger then me unless they become belligerent because they believe they are superior/more intelligent due to the fact they are younger and know everything [;)] We all feel that way when we are young and then life has a way of teaching its lessons. ~Lashra

JohnWarren -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:54:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SirAndGentleman When I stated out in BDSM some 25 years ago the first thing that I learned was that for any BDSM relationship to work there are a few basic rules these are Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness. I have found very few on the Internet who live by these values and seem to think that BDSM is just a game. For me the Internet has devalued BDSM and the values that it stood for. But I can also see that for a few who understand theses rules BDSM and the Internet could be a good thing so lets debate all the issues. It's amazing how many people arrive and with their first post decry how much better things were in the "good old days" and how with the internet things just have gone to hell. The really funny ones tell us how much better it was when the Old Guard was in charge, a pitfall the OP has, at least, avoided. I've got whips older than 25 years and I'll state categorically that life back then wasn't any bed of roses. Cheating and lying abounded. What made things worse was the population from which you could draw partners was greatly circumspected so people tended to stay in bad relationship. The chance of a newbie finding someone was so much lower than that it is today that it's hard even to create a proper analogy. The internet isn't the antichrist; it's a fucking tool. Like a wrench (spanner to you). Some people use it to build things; others use it to bash heads in.

Proprietrix -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:57:01 PM)
I think the misconception here is that ALL lifestylists from yesteryear were involved in ONE subgroup. Yes, there used to be (and probably still are) subgroups that had high protocol, houses of training, chain of command, mentorships, etc... But at the same time, other subgroups still existed. There were still subgroups of folks who sat around getting pumped and wired on cocaine and then beat the everloving shit out of young girls, with no regard to safety at all. There were still subgroups of gay leathermen who didn't give an idle thought to whoring out their boys nonconsensually. There were still subgroups who got together and had orgies without the use of condoms or STD testing. There were still groups who involved minors or animals. There were still groups who (insert one's particular values here). When we look back at yesteryear, we tend to look back at whatever particular subgroup integrated us into the lifestyle and helped us form our values. We look at the particular group that we spent time with. Most people carried a skewed perception of yesteryear. When my grandmother says "The good old days" she's most probably going to make some kind of reference to the reservation she grew up on. She's going to refer to values that were present within the tribe. When myfriend's grandmother refers to "the good old days", she's probably going to be talking about the roaring 20s, flappers, the Mob, and blackmarket whiskey. Exact same time period, different perspectives. The internet took down the walls between different lifestyles and subgroups. Those who were a bit sheltered, and have only experienced their own subgroup, typically find themselves with raised eyebrows when they realize what others are doing. I don't think the internet directly affected any particular values of the lifestyle. It just allows us to experience culture shock more often.

MsMacComb -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:58:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheShadows I can't help but be very curious about "the good old days", as some refer to it. I want to know about our community history. I like to know where I fit into the chain of events. I've done my fair share of research on this topic. Everything I've read points to the fact that BDSM, S&M, and D/s was very unorganized back in those beginning times. Which leads me to believe that there were never any absolute values that *everyone* went by. There still aren't. So, that's a moot point, IMO. "True values" are subjective. Has the internet devalued BDSM? he internet is only a tool. IMO, it's the people who use it to hurt, abuse, and exploit others that has devalued BDSM, based on my own set of "Lifestyle Values". As always, YMMV. I think the guys point (in part) was that with the Internet you have people that can spout off and give advice that have no clue what they are talking about. One only has to look at about half the webisites, articles, forums, threads and replies to confirm that. Part of that is that people can be anonymous so there is no accountability for some, no way to verify anything they claim. You could have a 17 year old virgin trying to pass themselves off as some life long lifestyler and based off much of what I read, that appears to be the case. As he stated "Honesty, Trust, Safety and Open mindedness". I see less and less of that everyday and you can witness most of the heated debates here as evidence. One size fits all, fake profiles, disregard for safety measures and this is what applies to me so it can only be that way wanna be dommes/doms. Prior to the Internet where the majority of interaction was face to face people practiced and advocated some of the "values" he mentioned.

TheShadows -> RE: Has the Internet killed the True values of BDSM (5/3/2006 1:59:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: CrappyDom Nope none of the above would ever happen in the "glorious old days" of which I belonged so you should get on your knees and suck my cock even though I am a shriveled old man who couldn't get it up back then either. I never said all those things didn't/couldn't/wouldn't happen. Just because I'm curious about the beginnings of what we are now doesn't mean I'm attempting to romanticize it.

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