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RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 11:49:20 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Ah well silly me. I am sure that the pets in my house, especially the dogs, generally know who is in charge.



As it should be.
I don't think people should get dogs if they can't or won't control them.
It never ends well, both for the dog as well as for the house.

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Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 11:56:01 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Most likely because each believes the other to be a bunch of ridiculous looking roleplayers acting out the parts of fantasy books that turn them on.

And they're right.

I was not aware that the Forum Guidelines had changed.

This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others.

Perhaps you will be kind enough to update the Mods?

K.

(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 22
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 12:30:34 PM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Ah well silly me. I am sure that the pets in my house, especially the dogs, generally know who is in charge.


Reminds me of a lesson horse my daughter showed many years ago. I got stuck holding him and she looked at me and said "Show him who's boss". I told her "we already had that discussion, and he is". He was renowned for biting, especially all the mothers.


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Profile   Post #: 23
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 12:46:15 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seraphandazrael

this girl was wondering why people in the vampire community don't like people in the gorean community? her Owner said that He was surprised that she found Him and there arent that many differences in the way He is compared to this girls former Owners. she needs to know the answer to this question because she needs to know how to change herself to better please Him. however when she asks His answer is that its just the way it is. she is hoping that by posting this that she will be better able to understand and start making progress to change herself.

I'm not going to comment at all about ways you can change yourself to become more pleasing.  That's completely the Master's territory in the situation and I have no desire to be making such decisions for him.

As to why certain folks in one alternative lifestyle don't 'like' members of another alternative lifestyle, it does sometimes just come down to "the way it is".  One group might have different ways or doing things than others, or some members of a group may have had experiences with someone who identified as the other group that created a prejudice.  All it takes is one or two extremists or crackpots that identify as X to make people think that everyone in that group believes X.  It happens to leather people all of the time.

On top of that, you've got folks in various alternative lifestyle that use the same terms (i.e. Master) for different meanings.  This in itself can cause conflict.  It can breed contention between individuals as well as groups.  I find this happens a lot more on mediums such as this than in the physical world.


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(in reply to seraphandazrael)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 4:11:14 PM   
AlwaysLisa


Posts: 1088
Joined: 10/6/2006
From: Washington State
Status: offline
quote:

she needs to know the answer to this question because she needs to know how to change herself to better please Him.


To the OP,

You never stated which form of relationship you were in currently, judging by the comment above, Im guessing your owner is a Vamp.  A Gorean male, or at least the ones I have known, make the decision about what needs changing.

Perhaps you should start by reading the Gorean forum, getting a feel for how it works between men and women.  Then you could come to a more well informed point about what is different between the two worlds.  Might take you a bit longer then asking for others opinions, but something worthwhile is worth doing right :)

The post was hard to read, try more punctuation, but it didn't look as if your owner had any questions or issues..."just the way it is", seems as if he was fine with things and not the least bit curious.  

Lisa


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Profile   Post #: 25
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 4:28:06 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline 		edit: nevermind, I'm not going to go into specifics about other people's lives, suffice it to say I remember when and why you first told me you planned to move out. What you said then and what you say now can not both be true.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 2/9/2011 4:44:40 PM >

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 26
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 5:00:51 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella

Most likely because each believes the other to be a bunch of ridiculous looking roleplayers acting out the parts of fantasy books that turn them on.

And they're right.

I was not aware that the Forum Guidelines had changed.

This isn't a place to insult the kinks, preferences, lifestyles, etc. of others.

Perhaps you will be kind enough to update the Mods?

K.


Maybe they leave that kind of stuff up to allow us a clue of which posters to pay attention to and which to ignore.


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(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 27
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 5:23:35 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Maybe they leave that kind of stuff up to allow us a clue of which posters to pay attention to and which to ignore.



Pretty much. I mean if anyone has any genuine hurt feelings they're free to ask for an apology but if it's just being a stickler for the rules I'd suggest writing it off to snotty bitchiness.

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Profile   Post #: 28
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 6:17:45 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Elisabella


quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Maybe they leave that kind of stuff up to allow us a clue of which posters to pay attention to and which to ignore.



Pretty much. I mean if anyone has any genuine hurt feelings they're free to ask for an apology but if it's just being a stickler for the rules I'd suggest writing it off to snotty bitchiness.


My comments basically had nothing to do with being a stickler for rules and more to do with being against blanket insults aimed at entire groups of people.


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(in reply to Elisabella)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 6:33:25 PM   
Elisabella


Posts: 3939
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

My comments basically had nothing to do with being a stickler for rules and more to do with being against blanket insults aimed at entire groups of people.



Oh I thought it was about judging which people to ignore based on their posts and deciding I was not the sort of person you wish to pay attention to.

Which, FWIW, I'm surprisingly okay with and I wish more people took that approach.

< Message edited by Elisabella -- 2/9/2011 6:34:28 PM >

(in reply to thishereboi)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/9/2011 11:56:34 PM   
sunshinemiss


Posts: 17673
Joined: 11/26/2007
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quote:

Where did you get that she is 'being punished' in this thread?


ummmm... from her use of Gorean slave-punishment speech maybe?

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Profile   Post #: 31
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 12:10:58 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

Where did you get that she is 'being punished' in this thread?


ummmm... from her use of Gorean slave-punishment speech maybe?


????????? oooooo kay then




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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 9:10:51 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

Where did you get that she is 'being punished' in this thread?


ummmm... from her use of Gorean slave-punishment speech maybe?


????????? oooooo kay then



sunshinemiss is right that, in the books, usually third person speech like that isn't used at all, UNLESS the girl have been very offensive, displeasing, is being punished and is being over the top humble, submissive and groveling to appease the men/man angry at her.
In which case she, btw, actually uses a form of third person speech that, unlike we most see online, ISN'T annoying to read/listen too... from the "not wanting to piss of the guy more" position, I guess.

When not being punished or apologizing, kajirae in the books rarely ever use third person speech, though I remember it being used at least once for training purposes.

Obviously, online it's become a habit for many who call themselves kajira to always use third person speech, but that is not how it happens in the majority of interactions slaves have with the free in the books.

_____________________________


Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 33
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 9:27:50 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Obviously, online it's become a habit for many who call themselves kajira to always use third person speech, but that is not how it happens in the majority of interactions slaves have with the free in the books.


Hi Ishtarr...

I totally understand... I do know slaves who use third person who aren't using it as goreans (goth gals in particular) and seeing as they are a mix of both, for me, it's second guessing only.

But regardless if she is using it as punishment or not, doesn't mean she automatically deserved the demeaning tone she received for asking a simple question and having part of her life choice/fantasy choice... whatever one might wish to call it... ridiculed. By anyone.

Maybe I should have put a disclaimer with my 'okay' - words to the effect that when someones being punished, it's all ok to freeforall then, gotchakindathing.

< Message edited by RCdc -- 2/10/2011 9:37:10 AM >

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Profile   Post #: 34
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 9:33:51 AM   
Ishtarr


Posts: 1130
Joined: 4/30/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc

But regardless if she is using it as punishment or not, doesn't mean she automatically deserved the demeaning tone she was received for asking a simple question and having part of her life choice/fantasy choice... whatever one might wish to call it... ridiculed. By anyone.


I just wanted to provide some background information on why sunshinemiss may have thought she was being punished, I don't really have an opinion either way on whether the response itself was appropriate.

It depends on context I suppose...

If she's talking as a Gorean Free Woman to a kajira, especially one assumed to be under punishment, her tone was completely appropriate, if not too mild...

If you're talking of criticism within the general BDSM community, then yeah, I can see that'd you'd see it as ridicule or demeaning and would say she doesn't deserve it.

Please keep in mind though that according to a Gorean's mindset, kajirae deserve all abuse, ridicule and demeaning any free choses to impose on them, and that thus, such responses can be deemed completely appropriate by Goreans, and by the girl herself.
It's a different style of interaction than most interested in BDSM are used to.


< Message edited by Ishtarr -- 2/10/2011 9:35:15 AM >

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Du blutest für mein Seelenheil
Ein kleiner Schnitt und du wirst geil
Egal, erlaubt ist, was gefällt

Ich tu' dir weh.
Tut mir nicht Leid!
Das tut dir gut.
Hör wie es schreit!

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 9:44:14 AM   
RCdc


Posts: 8674
Status: offline 		Ishtarr

I do understand I really do about the humiliation thing and the way one address' kajira as a free. Had she posted on the Gorean board, I would totally not be questioning this. Had the person who responded to her been Gorean, I wouldn't have thought twice about it.But like you say - this was general BDSM interaction I was questioning, not Gorean.

Interesting though Ishtarr... if it was on the Gorean board by 'a Gorean' (for sake of discussion)... would ridiculing Gorean practices have been appropriate?

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RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 4:37:47 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

Interesting though Ishtarr... if it was on the Gorean board by 'a Gorean' (for sake of discussion)... would ridiculing Gorean practices have been appropriate?
On planet Earth, yes, although it may or may not make you any friends in that forum.

One diff between vamps and Goreans is that there are no dominant roles for women in Gorean, and in general Vampire/Goth is more about romanticism and sensuality than dominance and submission per se - the vampires probably think the Goreans are trogs, and the Goreans probably thinks the vamps are gay, even though, all being actually human, there may not be as many behavioral differences as all this might imply - it's all likely mostly about the clash between two abstract fantasy worlds with distinctly different sets of aesthetic values: human behavior doesn't tend to vary all that much within a fairly basic set of parameters, perhaps that's what makes those little differences so seemingly important.

One finds much the same thing among religions for example, even when they all presumably worship the same god, or gangs, who might live just a couple of streets away from each other, and they often commit bloody murder over it - it's human nature to tribalize, and exaggerate minute, cosmetic differences - civilization is about not taking any of it that seriously, so as long as they aren't slaughtering each other, it's just a thang.

< Message edited by xssve -- 2/10/2011 4:39:43 PM >

(in reply to RCdc)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 4:48:50 PM   
xssve


Posts: 3589
Joined: 10/10/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr


quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

quote:

Where did you get that she is 'being punished' in this thread?


ummmm... from her use of Gorean slave-punishment speech maybe?


????????? oooooo kay then



sunshinemiss is right that, in the books, usually third person speech like that isn't used at all, UNLESS the girl have been very offensive, displeasing, is being punished and is being over the top humble, submissive and groveling to appease the men/man angry at her.
In which case she, btw, actually uses a form of third person speech that, unlike we most see online, ISN'T annoying to read/listen too... from the "not wanting to piss of the guy more" position, I guess.

When not being punished or apologizing, kajirae in the books rarely ever use third person speech, though I remember it being used at least once for training purposes.

Obviously, online it's become a habit for many who call themselves kajira to always use third person speech, but that is not how it happens in the majority of interactions slaves have with the free in the books.
As Christianity amply demonstrates, oral tradition has a life of it's own that can end up being utterly alien to the literary tradition that spawned it.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 5:12:01 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		A good deal of this third person speach appears to have originated in both the chat and role play (on line) areas whay back when (for memory I think is was in IRC, but was certainly prevelent on MSN Gor RP although the puritists tried hard to stamp it out. It's use was because it is not easy to initially differentiate between Free (Dominants) and slaves.


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Master of Bruin Cottage

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Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

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(in reply to xssve)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: gor vs vamp - 2/10/2011 5:28:08 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Soooooooo..........does that mean the Free Woman was the weal twue........master of the house?

(sorry, the playful snark in me just simply could not resist...)



I don't feel myself qualified to express an opinion on who the real true master of a house is...

I do know however, that when you're talking about keeping pets -which is about the statues a kajira has in a Gorean household- either the master or the mistress of the house can easily kick out a dog they can't control, and either one of them doing so doesn't give any indication as to who is in charge of the house in general...


In Bruin Cottage and especially when this was a Gorean Home, our dogs were above slaves in the hierarchy. aevern now any potential member of our home must pass the Malamute & Husky test. They can't get on with the dogs or the dogs don't like them they are on their way. Push comes to shove, the dogs win every time. Even then (Gorean times) to right now (Victorian times), those not in the know mistake Neets's authority and the fact I have asked her to be responsible for a lot of the day to day running of the house as indicating she wears the pants and calls the shots. Bad mistake which is soon displaced when she will regularly turn tio me and ask me if I am ok with her deciaions or tells people that she needs to run things past me as I have the final say. Not so far different to a practical well run Gorean home but then there are a lot of similarities between the operations and thinking of a lifestyle Gorean home and a Lifestyle Victorian Home. One is based on  a number of fictional books which in turn takes much from the very best of a variety of civilizations and the other is based on recent history well documented.


_____________________________

Iron Bear

Master of Bruin Cottage

http://www.bruincottage.org

Your attitude, words & actions are yours. Take responsibility for them and the consequences they incur.

D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
Profile   Post #: 40
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