Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing?

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PurpleCoconut -> Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:07:43 AM)
Hi, I'm very new to the scene, and so am still very much learning. I do apologise if this is a stupid question, but I am curious, and keen to learn as much as I possibly can :) On the boards I have heard people referring to "total power exchange" or having "no limits", but I am wondering ... is this ever really the case? I mean, you will always still have power ... if a Master/Mistress does something that you REALLY do not like, or whatever ... surely there is always the option of walking out, or of leaving? It might be difficult, but you always still have some degree of power? The same with no limits ... if, for example, a Master/Mistress does something that you realise is something you simply can't go through with - you can say no, and if they ignore your wishes, walk away? Perhaps I am being naive, but I realise this could be a possibility, and am keen to educate myself :) Thank you for reading, and hopefully, replying!

osf -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:31:19 AM)
only on gor most every where else real slavery is illegal and she always can decide to walk away

kalikshama -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:37:30 AM)
Here's 18 pages of debate on "No Limits" http://www.collarchat.com/m_3537541/tm.htm Executive summary: Some people believe in "no limits" Some people believe in "no limits relationships" Some people believe there are always limits

KnightofMists -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:39:18 AM)
quote: On the boards I have heard people referring to "total power exchange" or having "no limits", but I am wondering ... is this ever really the case? I mean, you will always still have power ... if a Master/Mistress does something that you REALLY do not like, or whatever ... surely there is always the option of walking out, or of leaving? It might be difficult, but you always still have some degree of power? actually... it would be unrealistic to think that one always has power (ability to do or not do as one chooses) to choose differently than what one's Master/Mistress decides. This is not to say that these situation are healthy or unhealthy... each needs to be judged on it's own merits.... quote: The same with no limits ... if, for example, a Master/Mistress does something that you realise is something you simply can't go through with - you can say no, and if they ignore your wishes, walk away? You would think so.... but there are some that will not or can not say no to their Master/Mistress... and even if they do.... sometimes it's well past the point before harm has been done.

ImaginativeWhims -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PurpleCoconut Hi, I'm very new to the scene, and so am still very much learning. I do apologise if this is a stupid question, but I am curious, and keen to learn as much as I possibly can :) On the boards I have heard people referring to "total power exchange" or having "no limits", but I am wondering ... is this ever really the case? I mean, you will always still have power ... if a Master/Mistress does something that you REALLY do not like, or whatever ... surely there is always the option of walking out, or of leaving? It might be difficult, but you always still have some degree of power? The same with no limits ... if, for example, a Master/Mistress does something that you realise is something you simply can't go through with - you can say no, and if they ignore your wishes, walk away? Perhaps I am being naive, but I realise this could be a possibility, and am keen to educate myself :) Thank you for reading, and hopefully, replying! The thing about TPE is that it's really not as complicated as you've stated above as long as the person in charge has any sense at all in their head. When you become Master/God/Daddy/Lord/Him formally, if you're worth your salt then you know that the responsibility you've taken on is closer to the handling of a child than the handling of a dog. Though sometimes you may treat your lesser half as a canine, once that collar is locked in place it is now in your hands to take care of them even when it was your gloved hand that made them become a pile of mewling tear-stricken flesh. "No limits" exists, but it exists within the sanctity of the bond between Dominant and Submissive. The Dominant knows in their heart and mind that when "No limits" is listed, that He has the power of life itself over the submissive. A true Dom gets off on the knowing of this information and having it, not taking advantage of it and actually killing his pet. The Submissive knows in their heart and mind that when they list "No limits", that their Master has the power of life itself over them. They will get off heavily on the knowing of this information because the fear and thrill of it being pushed too far is the entire point... not necessarily the action itself. The surrender of the Safe Word is the highest possible level of connection and trust between the D and the s, but it comes at a price... I'll throw down an old saying, that seems to apply to just about everything. "With great power comes great responsibility."

kalikshama -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:52:06 AM)
quote: "Many Psychiatrists and clinical psychologists think we lifestylers to be varying types of dangerous lunatic." -whothehellRU1, trying to ruffle feathers. He was fun while he lasted. I've never seen so many threads yanked so quickly. Admin power!

mummyman321 -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 8:56:28 AM)
A defintion of TPE from the book "Screw The Roses Give me the Thorns": "TPE is the empowerment of the Dominant BY the submissive's surrender to His/Her control. The power exchange is consensual and should be well negotiated. The depth of power yielded by the submissive is equal to the level of responsibility assumed by the Dominant." TPE in no way means no limits. TPE is not a one way street. Two people are involved in the relationship and the TPE is the total power exchange between the two people in both directions. Otherwise it would be named One Way Power Exchange. The key aspect with TPE as within any relationship is the clear communication of wants and needs on both side of the kneel.

ImaginativeWhims -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 9:17:11 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama quote: "Many Psychiatrists and clinical psychologists think we lifestylers to be varying types of dangerous lunatic." -whothehellRU1, trying to ruffle feathers. He was fun while he lasted. I've never seen so many threads yanked so quickly. Admin power! I had to chuckle the whole time... he reminded me heavily of one of those, "THE END IS NIGH! REPENT AND YE SHALL BE SAVED FOR HE IS THE SAVIOR!" types. They're trying to get a message across in the most flamboyant way possible... guess he wasn't aware that the resident troll position has been filled for a while now. (FT's entrance music plays)

leadership527 -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 9:58:56 AM)
I'll give you two answers to the question of "total". To an engineer: The word "total" means exactly 100%. Humans don't deal in totalities and don't operate according to them. To an engineer, one is immediately going to start looking at boundary conditions and special cases. So if you have an engineer's brain, then I'd avoid the word "total". To a poet: In the more figurative sense, "total" can be appropriate. At some point, when it's all working out well, you spend more time looking at the road ahead of you then the various ways you might drive off it. "Total" is a good enough word to describe Carol and I. I could get more specific and say, "It's been total so far -- she has never disobeyed -- and it's likely to be total in the future because I'm not an idiot." You can go on and on about the "option" and "choice" concepts. In my opinion, Carol does have "choice"... sort of.... but it is so heavily coerced that it can't be called "free choice". But yeah, if I did something so massively stupid that it occurred to her that I wasn't worthy of respect anymore and was possibly even insane, then more choices would open up to her. Most of us don't spend a lot of time worrying about "What if I suddenly go insane for no apparent reason?" How much time do you spend every day worrying about what if an asteroid hits the earth today? ~Jeff

Buzzzz -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 11:23:24 AM)
total is so subjective.. But power exchange is an awesome thing to experience :)

Wheldrake -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 12:13:06 PM)
Not many people are prepared to keep their slaves locked in the basement 24/7. And without some kind of extreme arrangement like that, the slave will always have opportunities to walk away from the relationship. Total power exchange could be seen as an agreement that the slave will never take advantage of those opportunities no matter what the owner does. In the absence of that permanently locked door, however, there's really nothing (except perhaps psychology) to stop the slave from breaking the agreement and ending the power exchange.

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 2:00:05 PM)
i think total power exchange is possible; it's something that's created between two people, but not necessarily a definable state that you can point at and say "see, that's TPE!" it's something that happens over time, not something instant. one day you wake up and realise "omigosh, i really can't leave this person." but you don't want to anyway. =p i dunno, it's hard to explain. TPE and IE (internal enslavement, if you dunno what that means) are very subjective/personal states of being, at least in my opinion. it would be difficult to define for anyone else. i agree with leadership's interesting discussion of absolute vs. subjective definitions of "total" -- what does total mean to you? i walk and breathe by my own power, but i might make decisions on things (or not make decisions at all) because of giving away that power to someone else. or the power is simply having the POSSIBLE ability to exert control, even if they don't want it. =p you may make all sorts of decisions on your own, b/c your D allows you, but you do it in the knowledge that the D could assume control of that if s/he wanted. blah blah blah...

Twoshoes -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 2:23:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 To a poet: In the more figurative sense, "total" can be appropriate. At some point, when it's all working out well, you spend more time looking at the road ahead of you then the various ways you might drive off it. "Total" is a good enough word to describe Carol and I. I could get more specific and say, "It's been total so far -- she has never disobeyed -- and it's likely to be total in the future because I'm not an idiot." ~OP It's only, exactly as total as your *belief. And there is nothing else of consequence to examine, since the pleasure, safety, terror and danger all come from feeling* owned. (Unless you're asking "is there such a thing" in a philosophical sense.)

osf -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 2:24:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LillyBoPeep i think total power exchange is possible; it's something that's created between two people, but not necessarily a definable state that you can point at and say "see, that's TPE!" it's something that happens over time, not something instant. one day you wake up and realise "omigosh, i really can't leave this person." but you don't want to anyway. =p i dunno, it's hard to explain. TPE and IE (internal enslavement, if you dunno what that means) are very subjective/personal states of being, at least in my opinion. it would be difficult to define for anyone else. i agree with leadership's interesting discussion of absolute vs. subjective definitions of "total" -- what does total mean to you? i walk and breathe by my own power, but i might make decisions on things (or not make decisions at all) because of giving away that power to someone else. or the power is simply having the POSSIBLE ability to exert control, even if they don't want it. =p you may make all sorts of decisions on your own, b/c your D allows you, but you do it in the knowledge that the D could assume control of that if s/he wanted. blah blah blah... quote: _____________________________ "Many Psychiatrists and clinical psychologists think we lifestylers to be varying types of dangerous lunatic." -whothehellRU1, trying to ruffle feathers. if you can't define it you can't say what you can't define is possible

LillyBoPeep -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 2:26:54 PM)
there isn't a "can't" anywhere in my post. =p

leadership527 -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 2:49:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Twoshoes It's only, exactly as total as your *belief. And there is nothing else of consequence to examine, since the pleasure, safety, terror and danger all come from feeling* owned. Well, not exactly... only in the kinky sense of dominance and submission and ownership. For Carol and I, things are quite a bit different. Carol doesn't "feel" owned at all... nor does she "feel" submissive. I actually DO feel my ownership of her but I do not feel "dominant". But your argument falls apart, at least for us, right at the beginning because Carol doesn't associate any feeling with either being owned or being submissive. The first of those she doesn't understand and the second is a "fish in water" problem. Out of curiosity, how would it look to you if you envisioned that I had some sort of mystical mind control ability and could actually "make" her do things. Within limits, that's not far from the truth for us. In that scenario, the "pleasure, safety, terror, and danger" would all directly relate to the fact that she had no real self-control... you know.. a slave... In my world, dominance and submission are real, quantifiable things and they have direct, [mostly] predictable results.

LadyNTrainer -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 3:12:51 PM)
For us, it's the difference between "can" and "should". Because we have negotiated a TPE, by the terms of our agreement, I CAN choose do to horrible, reckless, stupid, unhealthy, dysfunctional, harmful things to my human property. Because I am not stupid or insane, and because I am generally a pretty calm and responsible leader who values family health and stability and the long term picture, the decisions I actually make for my household are sensible, sane and mature. If I was not a responsible leader, and the kind of person who quite sensibly values a happy and stable household where all of our needs are met in a safe and comfortable environment, I doubt either of them would have been willing to hand over that level of ownership. So you could certainly argue that since their "no limits" agreement will never be tested in reality by my pulling out the chainsaw, it only exists in our mutual fantasies. And your argument might well have merit. But it is what works for us. I do value the fact that I CAN do whatever I want with my absolute human property, even if I have no desire to exercise those rights in any kind of extreme sense in real life. If I was the kind of person who would do them harm, I would not have been given that right, because my boys are much too smart for that. So because I wouldn't, I can. Except I won't. Does that make any sort of convoluted sense?

Killerangel -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 3:42:29 PM)
Someone can always vote with their feet. Even if there are no limits, one person can choose to walk away. It would have to be a very strange combination of circumstances that would prevent a person from walking away if they truly wished to do so.

ImaginativeWhims -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 4:11:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyNTrainer For us, it's the difference between "can" and "should". Because we have negotiated a TPE, by the terms of our agreement, I CAN choose do to horrible, reckless, stupid, unhealthy, dysfunctional, harmful things to my human property. Because I am not stupid or insane, and because I am generally a pretty calm and responsible leader who values family health and stability and the long term picture, the decisions I actually make for my household are sensible, sane and mature. If I was not a responsible leader, and the kind of person who quite sensibly values a happy and stable household where all of our needs are met in a safe and comfortable environment, I doubt either of them would have been willing to hand over that level of ownership. So you could certainly argue that since their "no limits" agreement will never be tested in reality by my pulling out the chainsaw, it only exists in our mutual fantasies. And your argument might well have merit. But it is what works for us. I do value the fact that I CAN do whatever I want with my absolute human property, even if I have no desire to exercise those rights in any kind of extreme sense in real life. If I was the kind of person who would do them harm, I would not have been given that right, because my boys are much too smart for that. So because I wouldn't, I can. Except I won't. Does that make any sort of convoluted sense? This makes perfect sense to me, It's a more detailed version of what I was touching on. I'm just glad someone could clarify what I was babbling about.

Twoshoes -> RE: Total Power Exchange - is there really such a thing? (2/13/2011 5:41:01 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 Well, not exactly... only in the kinky sense of dominance and submission and ownership. For Carol and I, things are quite a bit different. Carol doesn't "feel" owned at all... nor does she "feel" submissive. I actually DO feel my ownership of her but I do not feel "dominant". Well, I should not have used the word 'feeling'. I'll agree what I wrote was unclear. I was certainly addressing this "in a kinky sense", because people's ability to defer and lead isn't often associated with terminology such as "total power exchange". quote: In my world, dominance and submission are real, quantifiable things and they have direct, [mostly] predictable results. That may be so. But I'm stating the 'totality' of the 'power exchange' is a subjective belief and any attempts to evaluate it by objectively listing what you 'do' and 'don't do' are pointless. The only thing that matters in this case is how the people involved view the relationship. So my two points: people asking themselves "how total?" are ignoring the fact that "total" is as abstract a concept as "infinity". people trying to list things horrific things they'd never do to prove a lack of 'totality' are missing the fact that 'totality' is a belief, not a measurement or something subject to checklists.

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