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ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess

I'm a pro-choicer.  Why do women always have to bear the brunt/blame/responsibility for everything? I disagree that they do.
 
We don't want her to have an abortion but we won't make the men stand up to thier role in the dance.  What about women whose husbands/boyfriends leave in the middle of the pregnancy?  How unfair is that to her?   It's extremely unfair, and as stated, I think they should have their feet held to the fire, so to speak.
 
( i do not believe in abortions after 8wks) Nor do i believe in abortion as birth control.  Other methods are far cheaper and less damaging to the body. 
 
We have so many children in foster care for whatever reason that need homes and nobody wants them.  We're paying the cost of those mothers who didnt want children but didnt abort them.  And nobody is in a rush to adopt half the children in foster care.  They would rather adopt abroad simply because it's easier. Then we should make it easier to do it here.
 
Which of the two evils do we want?  Abortion or a slew of children who are unwanted and know it and have to become adults in this society.  I prefer a live human being over a dead one, and I have the feeling that if you ask adult adoptees, or those not adopted, they'll overwhelmingly be glad they are alive too.
 
And why is it a man is just about free to roam all over and do as he pleases but a woman is constantly being scrutinized and her right to just ...EXIST as she wants a problem? I don't just mean abortion but EVERYTHING? Again, I disagree with the "everything" scenario. 

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ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess

I'm a pro-choicer.  Why do women always have to bear the  brunt/blame/responsibility for everything? We don't want her to have an abortion but we won't make the men stand up to thier role in the dance.  What about women whose husbands/boyfriends leave in the middle of the pregnancy?  How unfair is that to her?  ( i do not believe in abortions after 8wks) Nor do i believe in abortion as birth control.  Other methods are far cheaper and less damaging to the body. 

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We have so many children in foster care for whatever reason that need homes and nobody wants them.  We're paying the cost of those mothers who didnt want children but didnt abort them.  And nobody is in a rush to adopt half the children in foster care.  They would rather adopt abroad simply because it's easier.

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Which of the two evils do we want?  Abortion or a slew of children who are unwanted and know it and have to become adults in this society.  And why is it a man is just about free to roam all over and do as he pleases but a woman is constantly being scrutinized and her right to just ...EXIST as she wants a problem? I don't just mean abortion but EVERYTHING? 

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ORIGINAL: NeedToUseYou

edited to add....
and you also need to make dumping a baby in a dumpster attempted murder and send anyone immoral enough to throw a baby in a garbage can to jail and permanently castrated. Here I am talking of removing body parts. Same for child molesters, and abusers.

LOL.

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After all, would you rather see those babies given up at fire stations Hell Yes...., thrown in the trash-- no, but after they're aborted, I guess that's where they end up anyway....., killed and dumped-- see previous answer....., or shoved into the horrible foster care system.... hmm, death or foster care?

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OnyxGoddess

I'm a pro-choicer.  Why do women always have to bear the  brunt/blame/responsibility for everything? We don't want her to have an abortion but we won't make the men stand up to thier role in the dance.  What about women whose husbands/boyfriends leave in the middle of the pregnancy?  How unfair is that to her?  ( i do not believe in abortions after 8wks) Nor do i believe in abortion as birth control.  Other methods are far cheaper and less damaging to the body. 

I believe it's because men have no rights in regards to whether a child is born or aborted. Thus women have all the decision making rights in that regard. Besides that I believe maybe women should maybe be selective in who they fuck for one. I mean really, a man just doesn't turn into a child abandoning piece of crap overnight. Generally, she just didn't care until it mattered. And men do have to pay child support and such. I know it's not a 100 percent, but it works most of the time, and they are getting stricter. Besides that, don't know what to say. Ask women why they demand all reproductive rights, and that's your answer why the larger share offthe child rearing burden falls on women. Because it's your sole choice if the baby is even born.

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ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

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After all, would you rather see those babies given up at fire stations Hell Yes...., thrown in the trash-- no, but after they're aborted, I guess that's where they end up anyway....., killed and dumped-- see previous answer....., or shoved into the horrible foster care system.... hmm, death or foster care?

Personally, if I had to choose between aborting a fetus of my own or shoving it forcefully into foster care, I'd choose the former. There are so many children in foster care-unwanted, unloved, abused, disregarded, and kicked out on their asses with nothing when they hit eighteen. And to imagine the pain of knowing you were abandoned by your parent (my greatest fear), given away by an irresponsible coward, tossed away like a thing-that, to me, is much more horrible than death.

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ORIGINAL: Level
Again, I think the overwhelming majority of people that come from foster homes would disagree, and vehemently.

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ORIGINAL: MsMacComb

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ORIGINAL: Level
Again, I think the overwhelming majority of people that come from foster homes would disagree, and vehemently.

 

I have an adopted brother. He was bounced between the agencies for a bit before my parents took him into our home. He has a PHD in electromagnetic engineering and designs heat defibrillators, pulse lasers and god only knows what else. Most people just need an honest chance to succeed in life.

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ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I don't think most (if not any of us) want to extinguish a viable life or any life for that matter.  But what defines a life?  Pro Life sees life upon conception.  At conception it's a life and the sperm that was just ejaculated into a women and found it's way to egg fertization now has the rights of a human being?  Is it a life or a *potential* life? 

Isn't it both? No one can deny that it's alive, constantly growing and developing.... and I think it's a life/human... what else can it be? I think some of the terms like embryo are used to not only describe a stage, but to dehumanize.


It's how one sees it.  I find it reasonable that once a life is viable, and could exist on its own capacity, it's a life.... before that, it is a group of cells preparing to form a potential life. Additionally, as noted in some legal cases, if the woman is planning to nurture this potential life to term, the fetus can take on rights through the mother. 

From post #20 : Week 3

At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus.  Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun.  The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming.  The heart has begun to form. 

Week 5

The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one.  The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible.  Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun.  The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow.  The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo.   

Week 7

Major organs have all begun to form.  The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s.  Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible.  Facial features are also observable.  The eyes have a retina and lens.  The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move.

Weeks 9-12

The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office.  Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver.  The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed.  The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week.  Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed.  Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums.  Fetus can make a fist with its finger.  Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus. 

And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here are a couple of links:  http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml   or http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm


The majority of abortions are not  as frivolous "birth control". 

I guess we'd have to define frivolous, but only 7% of abortions are due to rape or incest, or to protect the mother's life.

I do not agree with abortion... for me.  But I am thankful for the right to choose how I take care of my own body.  It's a shame that  so many people are far more concerned with a women's fertilized egg  than the living, breathing human beings who currently walk among us. 

Part of that may be due to those "living, breathing human beings" to a large degree, can take care of themselves... and the ones that can't have the concern and aid of many of us..... while the unborn cannot fend for themselves. And for everyone that has said that they would not personally choose abortion, I would ask "why?".

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ORIGINAL: KittenWithaTwist

Personally, if I had to choose between aborting a fetus of my own or shoving it forcefully into foster care, I'd choose the former. There are so many children in foster care-unwanted, unloved, abused, disregarded, and kicked out on their asses with nothing when they hit eighteen. And to imagine the pain of knowing you were abandoned by your parent (my greatest fear), given away by an irresponsible coward, tossed away like a thing-that, to me, is much more horrible than death.

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ORIGINAL: needingtolearn

I came across this thread and it brings up such strong feelings.  I do not believe in abortion, but I also do not believe the government has the right to say what a woman can do with their own bodies as well.  I have four daughters, I have tried to teach them they could come to me with any problem and we can work it out together, but if that problem would ever come up and they feel that they could not come to me out of shame, I would rather they not go to some quack with a folding table and a dirty knife, risking their own life because of a mistake.  I think it should be every woman's decision, after all they are the ones that have to live with that choice, not me. 

After all I only have to answer to God for my choices, (and my Master and Mistress of course )

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Teens who take virginity pledges can't be trusted, according to an analysis of follow-up surveys. Findings: 1) 52 percent of pledgers denied a year later that they'd pledged. 2) Among pledgers who later admitted to having sex the year after the pledge, 73 percent denied they'd pledged. 3) Among pledgers who conceded in the first survey that they'd had sex, nearly one in three claimed a year later that they'd never had sex. 4) Pledgers were four times as likely as non-pledgers to recant previous admissions that they'd had sex. Researchers' conclusions: 1) Teens lie. 2) Pledgers lie more. 3) Born-again pledgers (those who pledge after having sex) lie the most. 4) Pledges fail. 5) We have no idea what works or what the truth is, because all this revisionism makes the data worthless. Conservative objection: Stop dishonoring pledgers by questioning whether they honor their pledges. (For the risks of French kissing, click here. For the superiority of intercourse over masturbation, click here. For Human Nature's take on anal sex, click here. For sex with teachers, click here.)

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ORIGINAL: Amaros

Heh...

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Teens who take virginity pledges can't be trusted, according to an analysis of follow-up surveys. Findings: 1) 52 percent of pledgers denied a year later that they'd pledged. 2) Among pledgers who later admitted to having sex the year after the pledge, 73 percent denied they'd pledged. 3) Among pledgers who conceded in the first survey that they'd had sex, nearly one in three claimed a year later that they'd never had sex. 4) Pledgers were four times as likely as non-pledgers to recant previous admissions that they'd had sex. Researchers' conclusions: 1) Teens lie. 2) Pledgers lie more. 3) Born-again pledgers (those who pledge after having sex) lie the most. 4) Pledges fail. 5) We have no idea what works or what the truth is, because all this revisionism makes the data worthless. Conservative objection: Stop dishonoring pledgers by questioning whether they honor their pledges. (For the risks of French kissing, click here. For the superiority of intercourse over masturbation, click here. For Human Nature's take on anal sex, click here. For sex with teachers, click here.)

http://www.slate.com/id/2141239/

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The upcoming National STD Prevention Conference, sponsored by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, among other groups, has just been given an unhealthy shot of ideology. The conference was supposed to include a symposium designed to explore how abstinence-only sex education may undermine other efforts to reduce STDs. The papers and panelists had gone through the customary vetting of peer review. But now the symposium has been abruptly retooled to include two proponents of abstinence programs—and to exclude a well-respected detractor. This is bad news, not only because abstinence-only work is scientifically unfounded but also because the switch represents a new level of government intrusion into the peer-review process of a major scientific meeting.

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ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistressLorelei

I don't think most (if not any of us) want to extinguish a viable life or any life for that matter.  But what defines a life?  Pro Life sees life upon conception.  At conception it's a life and the sperm that was just ejaculated into a women and found it's way to egg fertization now has the rights of a human being?  Is it a life or a *potential* life? 

Isn't it both? No one can deny that it's alive, constantly growing and developing.... and I think it's a life/human... what else can it be? I think some of the terms like embryo are used to not only describe a stage, but to dehumanize.

 
A lot of things are 'alive' and are not thought of as human beings....  It is a potential human being life, if that clarifies things, but the potential to become a living human being, does not make it a human being.

quote:


It's how one sees it.  I find it reasonable that once a life is viable, and could exist on its own capacity, it's a life.... before that, it is a group of cells preparing to form a potential life. Additionally, as noted in some legal cases, if the woman is planning to nurture this potential life to term, the fetus can take on rights through the mother. 

From post #20 : Week 3

At this point, the blastocyst, or developing embryo, is looking for a spot to implant in the uterus.  Early formation of the central nervous system, backbone, and spinal column has begun.  The gastrointestinal system has also begun to develop with the kidneys, liver, and intestines forming.  The heart has begun to form. 

Week 5

The embryo’s tiny heart begins to beat by day twenty-one.  The brain has developed into 5 areas and some cranial nerves are visible.  Arm and leg buds are visible and the formation of the eyes, lips, and nose has begun.  The spinal cord grows faster than the rest of the body giving a tail like appearance which disappears as the embryo continues to grow.  The placenta begins to provide nourishment for the embryo.   

Week 7

Major organs have all begun to form.  The embryo has developed its own blood type, unique from the mother’s.  Hair follicles and nipples form and knees and elbows are visible.  Facial features are also observable.  The eyes have a retina and lens.  The major muscle system is developed and the embryo is able to move.

Weeks 9-12

The heart is almost completely developed and the heart rate can be heard on a Doppler machine at the doctor’s office.  Most major organs and tissues have developed and red blood cells are now produced in the liver.  The face is well formed and the eyes are almost fully developed.  The eyelids will close and not reopen until the 28th week.  Arms, hands, fingers, legs, feet, and toes are fully formed.  Nails and earlobes start to form and tooth buds develop in the gums.  Fetus can make a fist with its finger.  Testosterone (male sex hormone) is produced by the testes in male fetus. 

And so on. For anyone wishing to see images of the fetal development spoken about above, here are a couple of links:  http://www.wprc.org/trimester1.phtml   or http://www.realalternatives.org/pregnant/fetaldevelopment.htm

If you define life at 3 weeks when a group of cells is forming inside someone (which by the way, all of us have cells forming constantly inside of us), then it is your choice to call it a life and give birth to it...  but don't tell me what I can and can't do with a group of cells growing in my body. 

quote:


The majority of abortions are not  as frivolous "birth control". 

I guess we'd have to define frivolous, but only 7% of abortions are due to rape or incest, or to protect the mother's life.

Frivolous meaning used as birth control...  Rape, incest and to save a mother's life are not the only valid reasons for abortion (and yes in my view you have the *choice* to think diferently, but don't allow me no choice at all).   If someone does not want a child, and does not have the capacity to care for it, bringing a child into the world can cause harm to a child who is now a human being.

 
One can talk of adoption... but healthy, caucasion babies free of birth defects (and who are not crack babies, etc) are not the only unwanted babies being born... now what?  
 

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I do not agree with abortion... for me.  But I am thankful for the right to choose how I take care of my own body.  It's a shame that  so many people are far more concerned with a women's fertilized egg  than the living, breathing human beings who currently walk among us. 

quote:


Part of that may be due to those "living, breathing human beings" to a large degree, can take care of themselves... and the ones that can't have the concern and aid of many of us..... while the unborn cannot fend for themselves. And for everyone that has said that they would not personally choose abortion, I would ask "why?".

Some of these living breathing human beings unable to care for themselves are children... some are hungry, yet welfare benefits are in issue, the proposed cuts to healthcare/Medicaid will effect children and seniors who are less likely to care for themselves.  Decreasing funding for schools and parks/recreation for children is another way the goverment shows concern.

One can not get an abortion, have no money, no health insurance, have a sick baby, but how much help will the child receive?  Major surgeries to give the child a full and prrductive life... OR what the government decides is good enough to keep them breathing.

I don't agree with abortion for *me* as at this point in life, I know I have the emotional capacity to love and care for another human being, in the event that my caution in pregancy prevention was not enough.  Would I have felt this way when I was 18?  Will I feel this way when I am 45?  I do not know... but I am entitled to the right to chose what's right for me.

If someone is Pro-Life... fighting for *all* those whose lives (or potential lives) are at stake... where are the Pro-Life protests outside of death rwo prisons?  Not innocent you say... but many have been proven innocent as they await death.... how many innocent people have we killed?  Sad how the group of cells has more value to Pro-Lifers than many who are legally human.

(in reply to Level)

quote:



Are you aware of a new law that would make it hard for a woman to obtain an abortion without consent of her husband?   And majority of politicians are...MEN.  So the decision to have control of our bodies ISN'T solely ours. 
 
And a man DOES turn into a child abandoning piece of shit overnight.  My daughter's biological father decided he would just up and pull a disappearing act instead of being forthright about what it was he wanted.  He was in law school, very well spoken, bright, intelligent, funny - cream of the crop one might think.  WRONG.  And he didnt' pay child support for her as ordered by the court until the sherrif served him AND then he stopped paying but still demanded parental rights because he was her father.  when he found out he could go to jail for not paying his support he quickly signed over his rights.  I'm one of those people I can't take hormone meds like birthcontrol pills etc.  He knew this and we used condoms.  But he was a tricky little beast that liked to slip them off when we were doing doggy style and this he confessed after I told him i was with child.  Don't mean to get graphic and lewd but you can't say a woman needs to choose a better partner.  Even the brightest and nicest turn out to be pieces of crap if the situation isn't what they want. (Scott Peterson-who knew.  Those suburban kids who had a child and threw it in the garbage...etc etc.)  As one other said...child support stuff ISN't getting stricter.  Ask the mothers trying to make ends meet when daddys leave or don't pay.  If they can't find you they can't make you pay.  And most of these men give out crappy addresses.  Took a year to find one 6'4 220lb asshole with his parent's address and social security number.
 
For kids who go through the system and never get adopted and feel that cold hand of abandonment...i'm not so sure they feel they are worth anything.  Hence why a number of them remain in the system as criminals.  I didn't say all....but quite the few do.  Making it easy to adopt them would be the answer yes...but that has been on the boards for years and years.  Personally, I would rather never to have existed than to exist and know nobody wanted me. 

(in reply to NeedToUseYou)