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The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/25/2011 11:06:37 PM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Good old Saul Alinsky was under discussion on a thread I visited this morning. What should I see while surfing across my news sites at lunch today, but a nice example of Alinsky's theories at work on both sides of a contentious issue.

For those to whom he is just a name getting thrown around lately, here's the Wikipedia on him
It seems a Texas-based anti-abortion group decided post a big billboard in New York City, highlighting that 60% of black pregnancies in New York end in an abortion. They did this with an image of a black child and the statement that the most dangerous place for an African-American child is the womb.

You can find the tone of the response here on Huffpo

Now I'm on the other side of the abortion debate from many/most conservatives, but I'll give that this is a damn powerful ad. For the purpose here, let's say that it spins the declared ethics of the opposition right back into their faces (#4), it takes them out of the comfort zone (#3), and it sure as hell stirred up a reaction. That billboard is GONE.

The response? Declare an effective tactic is unethical, and attack it on those grounds, while never getting near the subject itself. It sure worked here.



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/25/2011 11:19:06 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		You mean the ones that said, Obama is supressing free speech by having it pulled?

Puleeze lets not get alinksyfied over this, people have been doing his "rules" since before alinsky was born.
What utter crap it is, and you know it
Abortion is always a passionate subject, no matter what any side uses
If it were a white woman  on the poster with the words white woman, mexican woman or asian woman(etcetc) I would object to it, I can see why its caused a ruckus and then some, without going into ANY other aspect of it
This is passion and self righteous anger.Has naff all to do with Alinsky and more to do with human nature in alll its ugliness



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/25/2011 11:28:34 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Has naff all to do with Alinsky and more to do with human nature in alll its ugliness



Isn't humans getting as ugly as they feel like the ends justify, the basis of Alinsky's ethics, Lucy?

add: This isn't intended as a 'bash Alinsky" thread. It might even be informative for some who would be interested.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/25/2011 11:30:05 PM >

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/25/2011 11:46:03 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Its the basis of any strategy religious, political, or whatever, using Saul Alinsky as THE bogeyman is just denying its a human character flaw in ANY ONE who wants something badly. To say it is down to one person is lying to yourself.
The end justifies the means has been an excuse for more than a bunch of political tactics.
Its like saying Karl Rove discovered "dirty tricks"
Ive seen posters on this board outplay alinsky by ten....in real life, more times than I care to mention and those people had NEVER heard of Alinsky, AND it was before Alinsky ever published a "rule book"





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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 3:43:07 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic
Has naff all to do with Alinsky and more to do with human nature in alll its ugliness



Isn't humans getting as ugly as they feel like the ends justify, the basis of Alinsky's ethics, Lucy?

add: This isn't intended as a 'bash Alinsky" thread. It might even be informative for some who would be interested.


Sure it is Richie.

Maybe it's to turn off Glenn Beck.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 5:31:53 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Maybe it's to turn off Glenn Beck.




That would require turning on his program to begin with, RML.

If you decide to participate in this discussion, your typical tactics in threads you don't like will certainly be used as an example of rule 13. Alinsky doesn't specifically mention having the village idiot keep clamoring for someone to explain why the sky is blue, iirc, but he would approve.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 5:39:59 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Maybe it's to turn off Glenn Beck.




That would require turning on his program to begin with, RML.

If you decide to participate in this discussion, your typical tactics in threads you don't like will certainly be used as an example of rule 13. Alinsky doesn't specifically mention having the village idiot keep clamoring for someone to explain why the sky is blue, iirc, but he would approve.


Let me ask you something seriously.

I would appreciate an honest response, though I'm not holding my breath.

Did you ever hear of Alinsky before FOX , Beck, and O'Reilly turned him into the evil villain that all liberals are seeking to emulate in the hope of destroying the country?

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 5:46:39 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		I had read the wiki link... and I know its not always unbiased. Which is why I asked about Alinksy.

His organizing skills were focused on improving the living conditions of poor communities across North America. In the 1950s, he began turning his attention to improving conditions of the African American ghettos, beginning with Chicago's and later traveling to other ghettos in California, Michigan, New York City, and a dozen other "trouble spots".

His ideas were later adapted by some U.S. college students and other young organizers in the late 1960s and formed part of their strategies for organizing on campus and beyond.[2] Time magazine once wrote that "American democracy is being altered by Alinsky's ideas," and conservative author William F. Buckley said he was "very close to being an organizational genius."[1]

Im trying to wrap my mind around the fact that the above is a bad thing.

In Rules for Radicals (his final work, published in 1971 one year before his death), he addressed the 1960s generation of radicals, outlining his views on organizing for mass power. In the first chapter, opening paragraph of the book Alinsky writes, "What follows is for those who want to change the world from what it is to what they believe it should be. The Prince was written by Machiavelli for the Haves on how to hold power. Rules for Radicals is written for the Have-Nots on how to take it away."[4]

Again, making an even playing field is bad?



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:03:30 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

add: This isn't intended as a 'bash Alinsky" thread. It might even be informative for some who would be interested.


Well then why did you even bring him up? He has nothing whatsoever to do to with that billboard or the article you linked. It's like me starting a thread about what a bad influence  Newt Gingrich is and then saying, "But this thread isn't intended to bash Newt Gingrich."


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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:11:13 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		It would be easier to take your "serious questions" more seriously, RML, if you showed any indication that you pay one fucking bit of attention to the answers you get.

Yes, I knew who Alinsky was, long before there was cable news.

Funny thing. While an awful lot of what he said was dead on, and very effective, my primary disagreement with his tactics is his insistence that the opposition must be "frozen," and dealt with in absolute terms. All the angels must be on one side, all the devils on the other. There can be no common ground. The bad guy must be utterly bad, and when you have nothing else at all, resort to constant mockery.

Gee. Sound like anybody you know?



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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:16:13 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Panda, Alinsky has been coming up lately and Tazzy had asked me about him on another thread. Mnottertail also phoned in on that, and I thought there might be a decent discussion. Yeah, the billboard angle had to shoehorn in, but confrontational protest is one of the defining characteristics, so what the hell.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:17:01 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

It would be easier to take your "serious questions" more seriously, RML, if you showed any indication that you pay one fucking bit of attention to the answers you get.

Yes, I knew who Alinsky was, long before there was cable news.

Funny thing. While an awful lot of what he said was dead on, and very effective, my primary disagreement with his tactics is his insistence that the opposition must be "frozen," and dealt with in absolute terms. All the angels must be on one side, all the devils on the other. There can be no common ground. The bad guy must be utterly bad, and when you have nothing else at all, resort to constant mockery.

Gee. Sound like anybody you know?



Yeah, kind of sounds like you.

But what do I know?

I had never even heard of this guy from the 1960's that you seem to have known about for years.

Your depth of knowledge is breathtaking.


< Message edited by rulemylife -- 2/26/2011 6:18:12 AM >

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:33:31 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Your depth of knowledge is breathtaking.




See? There you go, doing it again. How many times have I mentioned in discussions here that my family was deeply immersed in the radicalism of the early 70's to the point of getting our own phone taps and FBI interest?




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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:45:51 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
making an even playing field is bad?



Nope. Alinsky is all about how you do it, not what you are trying to do.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:48:21 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		From your post, are you saying he didnt care about the outcome... just the methodology?

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
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Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 6:51:48 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Your depth of knowledge is breathtaking.




See? There you go, doing it again. How many times have I mentioned in discussions here that my family was deeply immersed in the radicalism of the early 70's to the point of getting our own phone taps and FBI interest?



God, you must really be old then.



You don't have that old people smell do you?

Because I really hate that.

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 7:10:19 AM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

From your post, are you saying he didnt care about the outcome... just the methodology?



Not at all. He cared so passionately about the outcome that he encouraged his students to abandon morality to achieve it.

Lucy pointed out earlier that Alinsky didn't invent this stuff. He just wrote it down in an organized way, and rationalized the ethics. Some people embody some of his rules, without ever having heard of the guy.

< Message edited by TheHeretic -- 2/26/2011 7:12:30 AM >

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 7:29:08 AM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Panda, Alinsky has been coming up lately and Tazzy had asked me about him on another thread. Mnottertail also phoned in on that, and I thought there might be a decent discussion. Yeah, the billboard angle had to shoehorn in, but confrontational protest is one of the defining characteristics, so what the hell.


Word. 

I commented to rich and taz (taz had written to rich on another thread that she had no inkling of this guy)  that I was astonished that so many poeople were not knowledgeable about Saul.

I even made the comment that I thought he was as well known as johnny appleseed.

Rich said he had to go to work, and that he might post some stuff regarding Alinsky later.

He did, here we are.


nuff said (i meant)

< Message edited by mnottertail -- 2/26/2011 7:41:07 AM >

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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 8:10:09 AM   
ThatDamnedPanda


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Panda, Alinsky has been coming up lately and Tazzy had asked me about him on another thread. Mnottertail also phoned in on that, and I thought there might be a decent discussion. Yeah, the billboard angle had to shoehorn in, but confrontational protest is one of the defining characteristics, so what the hell.


Ah, shit. My bad. I wasn't aware of the backstory.

I still disagree with your premise, though. It's mystifying to me how so many conservatives have latched onto Alinsky and demonized him as some sort of liberal godhead. It's absurd. Alinsky is just one of an infinite series of social activists over the centuries who have applied and refined the basic principles of grass roots social conflict, and he just happens to be one of the hundreds or thousands who've codified their particular version of those principles and put them into print.

Calling something like this "the tactics of Alinsky" is historically ignorant. It's like calling Bryan Trottier the inventor of the slap shot just because he was better at it then most other people.


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RE: The Alinsky Way - NYC Abortion Billboard - 2/26/2011 8:30:08 AM   
TheHeretic


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Status: offline 		Well, Panda, I disagree regarding his significance and influence, and the connections between his teachings and legacy, and our President, pretty well guarantee he is going to be talked about.

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If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
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