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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 3:07:50 PM   
Icarys


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Tell me what this is if magnetic forces can't be shielded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWGNNWAvm4U

I just happen to have an abundance of broken hard drives so I know this works..Just took it apart..Now take a screw and test each side. Hey whatdayaknow..it sure looks like it's shielded?

If you can block all sides but the repelling side, you'll have a force that pushes alone and doesn't attract which in turn doesn't cancel itself out...simple.

< Message edited by Icarys -- 2/28/2011 3:35:18 PM >


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 3:59:36 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

How do you get the two magnets close enough for repulsion to move them apart? You have to add energy and if you then use that repulsion to generate energy you will get less out than you put in. That is always true.


I've bought less than stellar supplies from wally but hopefully I'll have a crude model built in a day or so.


Remember to put a load of some sort on the output. A simple electrical generator tied to a light bulb will do the trick.

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 4:14:49 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Remember to put a load of some sort on the output. A simple electrical generator tied to a light bulb will do the trick.


Nope..remember you said it couldn't be done and now I'm showing you it can be done. I never said it was viable in a way that you could run a light-bulb just that you could make it go on it's own accord once the shielding was in place and the magnetic placement was correct. I'll work on it and see what I come up with..If I get it, I'll be glad to send it to your address if you like just so you can inspect it first hand.

It breaks no laws of physics..The force was put in place by mother earth all we are doing is figuring a way to extract it.

I've already dispelled one myth that you can't shield magnetic forces if you'd take the time to open up an old hard drive...I know you won't most likely because you need to hold onto being correct more. Unfortunately you're not going to be able to do it this round.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 5:04:59 PM   
Termyn8or


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Sorry Charlie, I have to callem as I seeum. That vid does not prove magnetic shielding. For the most part magnetic shielding is accomplished by manipulating the field, diffusing and conducting  it in a way to make it buck itself. On a harddrive, the reason your paper clips don't stick to it are that the poles' fields are diffused and the fact that they are not close enough to the outside of the case to exert any significant force.

There are special materials though, and one is advertised here :

http://www.lessemf.com/mag-shld.html

Note the price ! I doubt there is a hell of alot of it in a hummingbird motor for example, because there doesn't have to be. I am not sure if the process will work without it totally, but a magnetic field can be opposed (neutralized) by a field of the opposite polarity (pole). Magnetism can be generated by electrical conductors. Thus the process can be effected, but even if possible without the use of true magnetic shielding, it would be quite difficult.

They are not giving up detailed drawing for these things for obvious reasons. But realizing that a magnetic field's strength is inverse square to the distance, small peices of magnetic shielding are of much use I would say. Just attenuate the field in the right place, and use a smaller amount of electromagnetism, which may have been the theory that made these things even possible.

To nullify a magnetic field you would need an equal and opposite field, but remember the proximity factor. That, with a lesser powered electromagnetic field can do it. I am not saying that I know that this is how these things do work, I know that this is how these things must work.

"If you think that's relative to what he's talking about you're far removed from his curve of thought."

That is hitting below the belt :-)

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 2/28/2011 5:06:44 PM >

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 5:17:44 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

Sorry Charlie, I have to callem as I seeum.

It's shielded enough for what I want to do. Seriously though..take it out and tell me where it's been routed to..If it was diffused then the other side would still have a magnetic pull which it doesn't.

Test it for yourself before you give statements like it doesn't work. Regardless..Shielding or diffusion..it would do the job for what I need and that's to make it go round and round all by itself.


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 5:52:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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The problem here is that you would have to move pole pieces relative to the rotation of the rotor to the stator. This would require a bunch of ridiculous mechanical linkage.

However when you do it with electromagnets, it is easy to modulate by the use of a commutator. This is already done in some motorcycle alternators, which are quite efficient. But that permanent magnetism is used chiefly to "start" the alternator. This is what makes it possible to kickstart a motorcycle without a battery. Later the power from the alternator itself does some energization. But because there is no permanent magnetism in a car alternator, you can't push start even a stickshift car. (unless you have a motorcycle type alternator in it)

None of this process can be done efficiently without a commutator, which will wear out. However an alternator in a car only sends field current through the commutator, and the output is derived from the stator. Any reliable design of the system would have to use that design strategy.

If the costs were to become reasonable, the optimum situation would be to have it all wear out at once. The rebuild would be replacement of the permanent magnets and the brushes, and possibly growling of the commutator itself.

See if your experiment works, seriously. I have my doubts. If it does work then capitalize on it. I think right now any specific design that does work is not patented, nor would it be wise to apply. But if you can make a working model, understand and explain the operation correctly it might be worth a shot. If it ever does take off, just the patent application will prove prior art and may put your hand in the pocket of whoever actually markets one.

Sorry if I think too practically for some. That's just the way I am. And by correctly describing it, I suggest some legal help. Remember Marconi lost his patent, although he doesn't care now. You might do it, if you do, do it for your own satisfaction or some type of possible gain, not to prove it to a bunch of bloggers.

Good luck, really. It can happen. Just be careful what you reveal on the internet.

One thing Ken is right about though, to absolutely prove that it can operate (practically) indefinitely, you will have to extract power from the system to be used. If it stops with even the most infinitesimal load, it's over. From what I understand there is a flywheel involved, because of peak loads, like when motors start or an inrush surge charging filter capacitors in the load. Without it, the machine will stall, because peak load can be many many times average load. That's right, you turn on an Ampzilla with a 12 amp fuse, it may pull a 300 amp surge at startup. It doesn't fry everything out because the peak is for such a short time. It literally comes down to thermal mass in the end - of every part of the supply chain.

T^T

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 7:43:57 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

One thing Ken is right about though, to absolutely prove that it can operate (practically) indefinitely, you will have to extract power from the system to be used. If it stops with even the most infinitesimal load, it's over. From what I understand there is a flywheel involved, because of peak loads, like when motors start or an inrush surge charging filter capacitors in the load. Without it, the machine will stall, because peak load can be many many times average load. That's right, you turn on an Ampzilla with a 12 amp fuse, it may pull a 300 amp surge at startup. It doesn't fry everything out because the peak is for such a short time. It literally comes down to thermal mass in the end - of every part of the supply chain.

You're getting way ahead of what I said I was doing. This isn't the next big internet free energy device I'm not building here to get rich. I just want to illustrate that it can be done and it breaks no laws of physics.. I would even venture to say that some of the over-unity devices using magnets don't either. Not sure about your hummingbird motor though. I can't see what's inside...I will say this though..The design is intriguing. They were able to pull out a set of coils (one set of many)to show that it could be changed easily when they wear out. That concept is interesting but I'm not sure how that would work with a running  motor.

Actually both of you are looking at this at the wrong angle...If it turns itself it has produced energy under load. Weight and Friction Resistance are loads.

Just so you know, I'll be ordering rare earth magnets tomorrow and probably doing some research on the material that encases the Neodymium magnets in the hard drive.


< Message edited by Icarys -- 2/28/2011 7:51:43 PM >


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 2/28/2011 11:46:19 PM   
Termyn8or


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OK. First understand that I in no way want to discourage you, but I think the future needs to be considered at all times. Understand that I have invented a few things, but not really. All I did was to take components and do something different therewith. It's copy copy copy and then write.

As one inventor said it's 99% perspiration. Welcome to the club.

So as to D C al fine here, get back to basic science, to prove it there are pitfalls. A true scientist needs to prove his theory to himself, not just to others. In that ilk, consider this : You just can't stand around long enough watching this thing to be sure it actually works. Of that there is no doubt. Sustainable qualities must be proven. This is not for others, this is for the science.

That is why you need a load. Somehow there must be a winding or something from which you can tap actual energy. Really, 100% efficiency is simply not good enough. If it were, anything spinning in a vacuum........but there is no vacuum. If it has bearings it has a load. If it has brushes it has a load. If it has anything it has a load. Now, rather than sitting there for 7 years watching the thing go around, if you draw power from it and it is right on the edge, it will stall. Depending on exactly what you intend to build, somehow you must take energy from the system. If you can do that it will prove unequivocably that the thing is a viable machine rather than a Rube Goldberg.

You said you never saw the inside of a hummingbird motor, well I can tell you approximately what it looks like. No, I haven't seen one, but I know. Take apart a motor and you will see about the same thing. On a shaft there is a stack of plates, called the core of the rotor. They are mostly identical, they are round, and have T shaped recesses cut around the perimeter. Some have slightly different shapes towards the end which facilitate the winding of wires around these stacked plates, which is a "laminated" core, common to motors and transformers all over the place. There is also a stator, with similar recesses which make up the laminated core of the stator. There are wires wound around the T shaped recesses.

What you will see in a hummingbird type motor or generator will be the same, but much more complex. There will be tertiary windings as well as strips, which will belie visual explaination. Those are the shields. They will be spaced similarly to the main coils on either that stator or the rotor or both. Measure the distances and they will not quite match. This is to put the proximity of the permanent magnets' field at the proper proximity to the shielding material to produce the maximum effect.

After some thought, it is possible to do this without an armature and brushes. Because both rotor and stator are in a rapidly changing magnetic field, electricity is easy to come by. With modern electronics there could be small circuit boards on both the rotor and stator fixes. Each could generate it's own power, and via hall effect devices, use that to control the modulation of the tertiary (bucking) coils. This would also reduce friction.

It took a bit longer to figure that part out, but it came to me because I am familiar with BSL and VFD motors. In fact I've seen BSL motors as thin as about 3 mm. Maybe that supposed mechanical linkage would not have to be that ridiculous.

And once you get these kids into it with computers and someone who knows how to use them, that linkage might be as simple as an oil pump on a Ford 302 V8.

You, I'l throw you the whole thing because you might have potential. Others I scratch off like a mosquito. You are talking to someone who really knows what the fuck they're doing, and I have given you a glimpse of what you're up against. Even you said, I think, something about major universities looking into this ?

But don't let that discourage you, innovation is not a rich Man's game. I'm sure you know that by now. There is something I think you should watch. No, this is not some high tech secret thing in some area 51 warehouse, it's an old TV show. But I encourage you to watch it, and I think you might like it.

It's the very first episode of Outer Limits. If you haven'e seen it fine, and I will not go through the plot. But at one point this guy's Wife says something like " You are a bla bla bla, what are you going to discover ? ". Not bitching really, believe it or not. But listen VERY carefully to his response. The whole show is worth that and this occurs in the first half. Hour that is. Yes it is one hour long, or was with commercials galore. They run 44 minutes or so now. But listen to his response.

But the reason to find it, I don't expect you to watch it now, or come here to get it. It's on imdb.com, under TV>full episodes. I'm sure you can find it. One of these days when everything slows down, take yourself into that world. It's called Galaxy Being.

Enough on that. One thing I know about inventions is that the first hundred or so are not going to work. Mail me, we can take it to regular email and then if you want to send me a video or something you can without inviting the hecklers to your own webspace (if any) , or here. I am one of the best troubleshooters around.

You got the balls to do it I'll kick some dirt withya. No doubt. What better way to bring technology to the masses than for it to come from the masses ? BTW, I also have a fairly well equipped machine shop. I own it. Idle, and very small, down in the basement, but everything important works. One thing I don't have is a plasma cutter, but I am pretty sure I have access to one, a biggun. That would take a few days notice. Fucker won't sell it either.

More later. Lemme know.

T^T

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 2/28/2011 11:48:37 PM >

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 7:19:26 AM   
Icarys


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I appreciate your offer to help but as it stands, I'm not going into depth on this... Just want to tinker a bit. I've had a few ideas in my head for quite some time and just decided to act on them.

This is just a neat side-trip on the way to an already working alternative fuel device that's successful many times over. Just wanted to show that you can extract power form magnets without breaking any well held laws.


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 8:50:45 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

Remember to put a load of some sort on the output. A simple electrical generator tied to a light bulb will do the trick.


Nope..remember you said it couldn't be done and now I'm showing you it can be done. I never said it was viable in a way that you could run a light-bulb just that you could make it go on it's own accord once the shielding was in place and the magnetic placement was correct. I'll work on it and see what I come up with..If I get it, I'll be glad to send it to your address if you like just so you can inspect it first hand.

It breaks no laws of physics..The force was put in place by mother earth all we are doing is figuring a way to extract it.

I've already dispelled one myth that you can't shield magnetic forces if you'd take the time to open up an old hard drive...I know you won't most likely because you need to hold onto being correct more. Unfortunately you're not going to be able to do it this round.


No, the reason to put a load on it is to prove you get energy output. A magnet 'motor' with no load will run a long time before air friction and the other drags stops it. Attempting to get power out will stop the 'motor' almost instantly.

As to shielding magnetic fields it can't be done the way you think.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 3/1/2011 8:52:41 AM >

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 9:05:22 AM   
DomKen


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If you will not believe me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOMtLAqkLak

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 12:06:43 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

No, the reason to put a load on it is to prove you get energy output. A magnet 'motor' with no load will run a long time before air friction and the other drags stops it. Attempting to get power out will stop the 'motor' almost instantly.


Listen Ken..One of the things I've always been good at is figuring out a way to get around issues that arise. Now I'll be honest, I haven't till months ago found the materials I needed to do what I had in mind for close to 30 years.

Well the material is available now so I'm going to attempt it. The discussion that happens for or against on this forum wouldn't in the slightest change that fact. Mainly because you nor Mythbusters has tried what I have in mind no more than I have tried what the next person has..Seriously, why would anyone take the word of a single person or tv personalities that something can't be done anyway. Surely though you've sat there just like I have and watched that show and thought..Why the hell didn't they do this or that when you know they missed something or did it sloppily and a HUGE number of people write in thinking the same thing...It's a fun show but that's about it.

There are 1000's of ideas floating around about everything under the sun and as T has pointed out...the innovators are normally backyard tinkerers that come up with a lot of those good ideas. If they had listened to everyone that ever said you couldn't do something, we wouldn't have most of what we have today.

Spend 5 minutes taking apart a hard drive like I asked and see the "shielding" that's going on and you'll understand why that's not a hurdle I have to worry about.

This is an easy argument to finish...I build it...you look at it and bam we have an answer. Maybe I'll send it to Mythbusters too :>

< Message edited by Icarys -- 3/1/2011 12:56:43 PM >


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 1:57:10 PM   
Termyn8or


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That video was a bunch of shit. Anyone with an ounce of engineering under their belt could easily see that the research provided the results that were paid for. Granted they may have stuck to the plan, but they were engaging in a bit of fun. And the plans were flawed, they just did it to "prove" it can't be done, disregarding the fact that the implementation was so flawed that a sixth grader wouldn't have tried it (in one of the good countries). They should've known this, but they took into account the poor quality of science education in this country, and some others.

The theory behind the propane contrapton was sound, but the implementation would give Rube Goldberg a belly laugh from which he would never recover. ROFL for eternity ! :-). The magnet motor shit was equally ridiculous, I could do better in my basement. What was their budget ? More importantly, what was that budget for ? Was it to keep people from sending twenty bucks and an SASE for the plans, or was it to stifle creativity ?

Fuck all that, do what you are going to do. Get it running and email me a video of it. I think my email can take something like 4 GB. But I want to see the system loaded, to prove it is greater than unity in efficiency. That is still the only positive proof.

Just everyone remember something. If I put my mind to it I could build one of those motor/generator things. It would take some doing for sure, and study. Let's say I do it. What does it cost ? Well from what I heard previously the magnets should last about seven years. Someone said twenty, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt. My electric bill averages maybe $60-70 per month. At $65 per month, in twenty years that is about $16,000. It has to be able to supply 240 volts at 120 amps. Perhaps I could scavenge, use surplus components, except where I can't.

To make the housing for the stator, just the housing would require a casting. A casting requires a form to make the mold. To make a form that is say one cubic foot approximatley costs almost as much as that electric bill for twenty years, and it would most likely have to be much bigger than that.

But there is more, which I will bring out once the slag all comes to the top.

T^T

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 2:14:12 PM   
Icarys


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New power source being studied.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYs1nKvW3SY&feature=relmfu

Hook me up to a TEG while watching her bounce and I'll power an IPOD, no problem!


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 2:34:28 PM   
DomKen


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This is really simple, the Second Law of Thermodynamics is correct. You can never get more energy out of a system than you put into it. You simply cannot beat it no matter how much 'backyard tinkering' you do.

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 3:13:37 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is really simple, the Second Law of Thermodynamics is correct. You can never get more energy out of a system than you put into it. You simply cannot beat it no matter how much 'backyard tinkering' you do.

What do you hope to gain by continuing with this line of discussion? Do you think if you keep telling me I can't do it..somehow that will convince me you're right or you'll wear me down? I personally think you're just trying to convince yourself of something.

You've thrown out a number of laws of physics and I keep telling you it's not breaking any and I suppose you have an idea in your head of what you think I have in mind..Now that is some feat. Who cares about magnetic repulsion when I can get the secret to mind-reading from you!

This is simpler...I build it and you look at it. I'll literally send it to your home registered mail if I can get it working. Deal?

One way or another, I won't continue going at it with someone who hasn't a clue of what I propose to do and is just waving physics penalty  banners to someone who will be using physics to complete it.

Maybe the mis-communication is that you think I'm trying to build a motor? I never said I would do that but sure I'll give it a try. If I can figure out the first part, why not attempt the next.

This is what you said.
quote:

No, it isn't. The only way to get energy out of a magnetic field is to change, oscillate, the field. That requires moving the magnet(s) or moving the conductor coil. You always get less energy out of the system than you put in to rotate whatever you choose to rotate.


That is incorrect and I'm going to prove it.  I'm sorry you're having problems understanding what it is I'm going to do but all you have to do is give me an address and I'll send you the package when I complete it.

If I can't do it then I'll make a public statement to the fact. What have you got to lose?


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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 3:34:56 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

This is really simple, the Second Law of Thermodynamics is correct. You can never get more energy out of a system than you put into it. You simply cannot beat it no matter how much 'backyard tinkering' you do.

What do you hope to gain by continuing with this line of discussion? Do you think if you keep telling me I can't do it..somehow that will convince me you're right or you'll wear me down? I personally think you're just trying to convince yourself of something.

No. I'm just repeating it so the gullible will know it is true when you disappear from this thread. Which you will inevitably do once you fail.

quote:

You've thrown out a number of laws of physics and I keep telling you it's not breaking any and I suppose you have an idea in your head of what you think I have in mind..Now that is some feat. Who cares about magnetic repulsion when I can get the secret to mind-reading from you!

Any time you talk about getting more energy out of a system than you put into it you are talking about breaking the 2nd Law.
quote:

quote:

No, it isn't. The only way to get energy out of a magnetic field is to change, oscillate, the field. That requires moving the magnet(s) or moving the conductor coil. You always get less energy out of the system than you put in to rotate whatever you choose to rotate.


That is incorrect and I'm going to prove it.  I'm sorry you're having problems understanding what it is I'm going to do but all you have to do is give me an address and I'll send you the package when I complete it.

If I can't do it then I'll make a public statement to the fact. What have you got to lose?


A static magnetic field is not producing energy. It is simply sitting there. The only way to use magnetism to produce energy is to move something through the field or to move the field. Either way you are changing the field relative to the place where the energy is generated. And no matter what it will prudce less power than you put in. Simply feed the output into the input and watch the thing slow down and stop instead of speeding up.

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 3:56:38 PM   
Icarys


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quote:

No. I'm just repeating it so the gullible will know it is true when you disappear from this thread. Which you will inevitably do once you fail.

Then all you have to do is agree to the conditions and we'll see where it goes.

"Put your money where your mouth is" comes to mind.


_____________________________

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RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 6:13:26 PM   
Termyn8or


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Enough caucus, I'll send a video camera.

T^T

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Physics..Paradigm shift coming..Next 5 miles - 3/1/2011 6:17:34 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

Enough caucus, I'll send a video camera.

T^T

He has to agree to the terms on his own since he's the one saying different.. (I have a camera on my phone that will work just fine..I'll make sure it's well lit but he's getting the device so he can't say anyone "lied")


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(in reply to Termyn8or)
Profile   Post #: 60
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