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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 3:05:14 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

What is a Semite ?
Easy...according to the dictionary:

a member of the group of Caucasoid peoples who speak a Semitic language, including the Jews and Arabs as well as the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 3:24:19 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig

quote:

What is a Semite ?
Easy...according to the dictionary:

a member of the group of Caucasoid peoples who speak a Semitic language, including the Jews and Arabs as well as the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians


If that definition is correct, then racial prejudice towards Arabs is also anti Semitic, so in actual fact those that have referred to Arab actions towards Jews as anti Semitic are actually talking shite, because Arabs and Jews are the same people. The only difference between them, is damned religion again.


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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 3:29:13 PM   
mnottertail


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The anti-semitic being gnawed down to just jews was an effort by a like 1850s kraut, forget his name.


Jews and heinies, hah?


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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 3:41:12 PM   
Aneirin


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If definitions exist and they fit without prejudice, what right has anyone else got to redefine that definition.

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 4:14:51 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
quote:

ORIGINAL: Arpig
quote:

What is a Semite ?
Easy...according to the dictionary:
a member of the group of Caucasoid peoples who speak a Semitic language, including the Jews and Arabs as well as the ancient Babylonians, Assyrians, and Phoenicians

If that definition is correct, then racial prejudice towards Arabs is also anti Semitic, so in actual fact those that have referred to Arab actions towards Jews as anti Semitic are actually talking shite, because Arabs and Jews are the same people. The only difference between them, is damned religion again.

quote:

ORIGINAL Antisemitism, Wikipedia
Although Wilhelm Marr is generally credited with coining the word "anti-Semitism" (see below), Alex Bein writes that the word was first used in 1860 by the Austrian Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "anti-Semitic prejudices".[21] Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its use by Renan and others.

In 1873 German journalist Wilhelm Marr published a pamphlet "The Victory of the Jewish Spirit over the Germanic Spirit. Observed from a non-religious perspective." ("Der Sieg des Judenthums über das Germanenthum. Vom nicht confessionellen Standpunkt aus betrachtet.")[22] in which he used the word "Semitismus" interchangeably with the word "Judentum" to denote both "Jewry" (the Jews as a collective) and "jewishness" (the quality of being Jewish, or the Jewish spirit). Although he did not use the word "Antisemitismus" in the pamphlet, the coining of the latter word followed naturally from the word "Semitismus", and indicated either opposition to the Jews as a people, or else opposition to Jewishness or the Jewish spirit, which he saw as infiltrating German culture. In his next pamphlet, "The Way to Victory of the Germanic Spirit over the Jewish Spirit", published in 1880, Marr developed his ideas further and coined the related German word Antisemitismusantisemitism, derived from the word "Semitismus" that he had earlier used.

The pamphlet became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Antisemites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany and German culture posed by the Jews and their influence, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the January issue of "Neue Freie Presse". The related word semitism was coined around 1885.

Which is to say, the term was coined to refer specifically to Jews.


< Message edited by eihwaz -- 3/1/2011 4:17:27 PM >

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 4:27:37 PM   
Aneirin


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From etymologyonline ;

Semite 1847, "Jew, Arab, Assyrian, Aramæan," from Mod.L. Semita, from L.L. Sem "Shem," one of the three sons of Noah (Gen. x:21-30), regarded as the ancestor of the Semites (in the days when anthropology was still bound by the Bible), from Heb. Shem. Semitic (1813 of languages, 1826 of persons) is probably from Ger. semitisch (first used by Ger. historian August Schlözer, 1781), denoting the language group that includes Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, Assyrian, etc. In recent use often with the specific sense "Jewish," but not historically so limited.anti-Semitism also antisemitism, 1881, from Ger. Antisemitismus, first used by Wilhelm Marr (1819–1904) German radical, nationalist and race-agitator, who founded the Antisemiten-Liga in 1879; see anti- + Semite. Not etymologically restricted to anti-Jewish theories, actions, or policies, but almost always used in this sense. Those who object to the inaccuracy of the term might try H. Adler's Judaeophobia (1882). Anti-Semitic (also antisemitic) and anti-Semite (also antisemite) also are from 1881, like anti-Semitism they appear first in English in an article in the "Athenaeum" of Sept. 31, in reference to German literature.


So, it would seem German racists redefined the term.

I didn't realise German antipathy towards Jews went that far back.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/1/2011 4:28:31 PM >


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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 4:45:24 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
It may be only us seven or eight people in the world, but maybe we can examine the situation. Pam came out with it, let's get the defiitions straight. What is a Semite ? Exactly.

Again, you answer. I am simply asking the question.

T^T


Go to hell.

pam

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 4:49:46 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
[...]
I didn't realise German antipathy towards Jews went that far back.

Quite far back.
quote:

ORIGINAL Antisemitism, Wikipedia
During the Middle Ages in Europe there was persecution against Jews in many places, with blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions and massacres.  A main justification of prejudice against Jews in [Medieval] Europe was religious. The persecution hit its first peak during the Crusades. In the First Crusade (1096) flourishing [Jewish] communities on the Rhine and the Danube were destroyed. In the Second Crusade (1147) the Jews in Germany were subject to several massacres.


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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 5:18:21 PM   
Aneirin


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I can understand a lot of the anger Jews feel towards others in the world, but given what they have experienced through the ages at the hands of others, one would have thought in order to exist in peace with others a different modus operandi from the oppressors would have been adopted, as clearly, two wrongs do not make a right. Of course here I am referring to the Jewish lands, Isreal, as that is the forefront of Jewish mentality in the world, as many others, including the new oppressed see it. Given the history of persecution, pogrom and massacres, I understand the Jewish right and need to defend themselves from the past, but there is a line between defence and expedition.

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 7:44:03 PM   
Termyn8or


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FR

OK I guess everybody is sufficiently pissed off now.

What was the point of this ? (now that you didn't ask)

In the beginning I asked, and each and every answer given to the original question was in relation to the Jews. We are not so stupid I think not to realize that Arabs and others are also Semites. But we take the term like people do America, or American. People seem to glance over the fact that US Citizens are not the only Americans. In that sense, consider the corrected definition.

Now I understand that America is a continent, and I am unaware of any continent named Semit, or whatever it would be, Semia or whatever ? But that doesn't change the comonalities and differences. So what is this, association of convenience ? Why did they pick the term anti-Semite ? Would you say Hugo Chavez Frias would be considered anti-American ? His country was in America last I checked, and I don't think they moved.

What fuels this whole bunch of shit in the middle east is beyond what we can easily comprehend. If you can't take it, go somewhere more interesting. The Semites have been fighting over pretty much the same part of the planet for longer than a paint stain on a silk shirt. There is something about that land, that part of the world. Each faction wants to dominate as much of it as possible. Our interest in their black gold is but one newer factor in the mix.

Semites, and I mean all of them, seem to have some type of love for that area. Why ? Is it a Biblical thing ? Or is it considered home for some other obscure reason ? Given how they treat their fellows, I don't think they are heeding the Bible all that much. As much smiting and all that depicted in the Bible, it doesn't necessarily condone this shit. Although it does seem to place a special importance on that part of the world. As if it were a continent actually.

Let's look at the Bible, and oil. Now no matter how high the people who wrote the Bible may have been, I don't think they had any malicious intent. In fact I would say their intent would be to promote the best interests of their people. Could they have known ?

Why is it so important ? Let's say for example someone came here and took over the country. What would you do ? You would fight of course and despite our differences I would be right there with you, like it or not. Let's suppose we lose.

We have to move. We would then be in diaspora, that is if we had any national solidarity in the first place. But say in decades we grow stronger, with or without a nation. What do we do ? Do we insist on this particular piece of land ? Tell me why.

This is the factor, the one I've tried to uncover. Objectively, put yourself in practically anyone else's shoes. You are displaced. Of course you can find somewhere. But you long for home. Is it worth it ? And after many years, who knows what happened to the place you once called home ?

Having known some European immigrants, they make an informed concious decision not to go back. And no, generally they are not wanted criminals or anything like that. Why did they leave ? Because they didn't like it there.

Is a nation or a home comprised of dirt, or lines on a map ? Or perhaps bricks and mortar. Or are we like salmon, that must lay eggs from where they were spawned ? I think not. And if we are supposedly supposed to think of ourselves as one race - the human race, what sense does it make to kill one anther simply to move lines on a map ?

You either define home one way or the other. It either has your people, your bed, your house, your everything or it has coordinates, latitude and longitude. And like the other issues of inclusion and exclusion, we seem to use whichever standard fits the moment.

Territorial witch hunting pack animals.

T^T

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 7:45:37 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

Although, I must confess, I would sorta like to be a consestant on Jeopardy.


Practice your buzzer reflexes.

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/1/2011 8:39:47 PM   
Aneirin


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Home to me is the land that I love and know, warts and all. Practicaly, this means where I now choose to live, I am content here, nearly everything I need is here. Now I am still in the same country that I was born in, but I am three hundred miles south of where I was born, and given the size of England, that is almost from one end to the other.

I have lived in other parts of the UK from time to time, and lived there long enough to know it and accept it well and yes, call it home, so I would like to conclude this by saying home, is where the heart is, but for me there is a caveat, my heart was only stilled when I at last came to live in the place of my ancestors.

So, perhaps, home truly is where the ancestral heart lies, and if genetic memory is a fact, maybe my coming to live where my ancestors came from, I have reacted to those genetic memories and found my way home.

But then, of this place, I had my own memories of here from childhood vacations, even then the knowledge was my ancestors came from here.

But why the need to come home ?


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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 7:14:32 PM   
Termyn8or


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I'm glad that's settled. Thanks An.

Stage three.

Many pro Jewish groups now seem to equate criticism of the government of Israel with anti-Semitism. In doing so, do they indicate that anti-Semitism is then created by their own actions ?

Ever ? Or can they do no wrong ?

Is the government of Israel Semitic or not ?

Again, I yield the floor.

T^T

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 7:17:15 PM   
Hillwilliam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or

I'm glad that's settled. Thanks An.

Stage three.

Many pro Jewish groups now seem to equate criticism of the government of Israel with anti-Semitism. In doing so, do they indicate that anti-Semitism is then created by their own actions ?

Ever ? Or can they do no wrong ?

Is the government of Israel Semitic or not ?

Again, I yield the floor.

T^T

Pro Jewish groups have taken a page from the Rush Limbaugh/Al sharpton playbook. (I know it sounds wierd but they use the same tactics)

You are 100% FOR us or you are one of "THEM"

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 7:23:20 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

If that definition is correct, then racial prejudice towards Arabs is also anti Semitic, so in actual fact those that have referred to Arab actions towards Jews as anti Semitic are actually talking shite, because Arabs and Jews are the same people. The only difference between them, is damned religion again.
Actually correct, arabs and some jews are both semitic peoples

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 7:27:11 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

each and every answer given to the original question was in relation to the Jews
I call bullshit termy...I didn't mention Jews in my first answer at all, however much you wanted me to. And in my second answer I specifically mention Arabs as well...so piss off!

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 7:33:42 PM   
Termyn8or


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Oops, OK maybe I missed something. Sorry. But that doesn't change the whole thing.

Hey, I am not God, I miss a thing or two once in a while. Crucify me.

T^T

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 8:55:36 PM   
tweakabelle


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quote:


Pro Jewish groups have taken a page from the Rush Limbaugh/Al sharpton playbook. (I know it sounds wierd but they use the same tactics)

You are 100% FOR us or you are one of "THEM"


That certainly is what happens here. Some of them have called me a pro-Hamas rabid anti-Semite and nothing could be further from the truth. Try telling them that tho ......

It's a brilliant strategy for deflecting criticism I have to admit.

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 9:20:24 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:


Pro Jewish groups have taken a page from the Rush Limbaugh/Al sharpton playbook. (I know it sounds wierd but they use the same tactics)

You are 100% FOR us or you are one of "THEM"


That certainly is what happens here. Some of them have called me a pro-Hamas rabid anti-Semite and nothing could be further from the truth. Try telling them that tho ......

It's a brilliant strategy for deflecting criticism I have to admit.

I don't want to play the termite's retarded little game on this thread which is further proof that bigotry and ignorance make excellent bedfellows but I have to say in response to the above post "no it isn't". I carefully justified my assertions at great length on the other Israel thread, and have defended others accused of anti-Semitism when the charge was raised too loosely. People use the old gem that the accusation of anti-Semitism is used to deflect criticism of Israel. Before that neo-Nazi's used the same nonsense argument to say the charge of anti-Semitism limits criticism of the role of Jews and prevents questioning relating to the Holocaust. No one owns the use of the word "anti-Semitic" so some can indeed misuse it without sincerity but generally it is used with regard to Israel where criticism is divisively one-sided/driven by hate. The charge of Islamophobia appears to be far more commonly used today, especially amongst leftists etc. who hypocritically get in a lather when the anti-Semitism charge is raised as if it can never be legitimately used, e.g. Red Ken Livingstone.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 3/2/2011 9:35:38 PM >

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RE: Let's just settle this shit once and for all, I'm s... - 3/2/2011 11:35:43 PM   
Termyn8or


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Anass, have you ever been to the ADL website ? And :

" don't want to play the termite's retarded little game "

Yet you are here.

What is home to you ? Asia, the middle east, Africa, the UK ? America, Iceland, Brazil, Yugoslavia ?

Termite calling anass, pleas respond, 10-11.

"People use the old gem that the accusation of anti-Semitism is used to deflect criticism of Israel."

YOU called it a gem and on that we agree, it certainly is. for good fucking reason.

"Before that neo-Nazi's used the same nonsense argument to say the charge of anti-Semitism limits criticism of the role of Jews and prevents questioning relating to the Holocaust."

It's not just neonazis, it's everyone who knows about the denial laws in Germany, and how shit really is. Any question of the official story is an impetus for criminal prosecution. Do you deny that the force of government is needed to prove the "truth" ? You can't be too familiar with politics you know.

"< I put that there in anticipation of something, but it was not forthcoming.

The question now is whether Semites had anything to do with the anti-Semitism that has been occuring spontaneously for a few THOUSAND years.

Your answer, you have the floor.

T^T

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