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RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 1:40:01 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: a49015Dom4subF

I'm curious,

Why does a discussion like this always have to degrade into a right vs. left argument? These people are loons, plain and simple.

I'm curious too.

Why do we keep having people ask these questions?

Their primary focus is anti-gay, along with anti-abortion, and a few other things which scream right-wing.

Rule, you think I'm "right-wing", but, I'm not religious *at all.*
Do you have to be religious or "hyper-religious" to be "right-wing? What if you are an atheist? Will they let you into the right-wing club then?
Stereotypes don't always work.
Perhaps you're confusing politics with... religion?
If I were a Republican or Demorat Boss I'd outright "BAN" these people from joining my club!

_____________________________

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(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 61

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 1:40:27 PM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Mea culpa: I thought you meant the left/right bit, not the "these vermin are non aligned because they're so flakey no political group outside of the Aryan nation wants anything to do with them" bit. I beg your pardon.

No problemo!

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(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 62

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:13:31 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Jesus flipping Christ! It was a fucking joke! Learn the difference.

quote:

No...actually, she sounds like a religious zealot which puts her on the far right. I believe that this church is a means for a few souls to push their (in MY mind) mistaken beliefs on others about who and what God is.

Thats because she is a nut case, just like dad. And guess what? They are registered democrats. Bet you didnt know that. But, remember, many religious people are pushing their own agendas... especially the political kind.

quote:

And yes, as a conservative, I do believe in a strong military. I also believe in God and in Jesus. I also believe that MY own personal belief in God and Jesus doesn't necessarily make them true...it may be Buddha up there ruling over things...or it may be nobody.
I DON'T believe in most church organizations, including My own...the Methodist church.

Were you expecting me to argue?

quote:

I believe in their right to free speech. no matter how wrongheaded it is. I do not believe that they have ANY rights to disrupt a private funeral. But "classless, tasteless, and clueless" are not illegal.

Im trying to find the exact post where I said they didnt have that right. I dont agree with them nor how they express themselves... but I will strongly support their right to do so, as distasteful as it is.

quote:

Sooooooooooo, they go protest at soldier's funerals. And others who feel that these people are religious zealots with shit for brains, including myself at funerals here in Colorado, get together as a group on our motorcycles and do our best to block their access...as do the police.

Im trying to figure out how this is pertinent to the conversation... but I will say Im sure many are grateful for the help you give.

quote:

I'm still a conservative. I'm still Republican. What does that do to your circle, tazzy?

Keeps it in a nice, smooth, circular shape.

You missed the point of the post.. which isnt surprising... but.. hey... im too tired to care right now to explain beyond this... the GOP is always aligning themselves with hard working, christian and family values.

You now have a "christian" who defames fallen soilders. Since the Dems are "anti-christians, according to some GOP party members.......

quote:

Business on the floor of the House was halted for 45 minutes yesterday after Rep. John N. Hostettler (R-Ind.) accused Democrats of "denigrating and demonizing Christians," prompting a furious protest from across the aisle.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/20/AR2005062001194.html

See the circle now?

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Post #: 63

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:17:00 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

"THA' wrath,.......of GODDDDDDD,.....is......POURING ONTA this... LANNNND!!!"

Kinda channeling Pat Robertson there, 'cepting way more rational, and even a little poetic.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 64

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:22:36 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Court made the right decision

Hard to argue with an 8-1 decision. I haven't read it, and won't have the time - but I'm surprised at the suggestion that it's not possible to regulate the time/manner/place of protests so that public (or private) functions aren't disrupted.

If the Supremes are gonna let the govt hold citizens for months without charges, it would seem that they could pick ones who have it coming, like these.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 65

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:34:07 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Saint Ronnie of the Monster Deficit handed the Republican party over to the religious right back in 1980

You have to credit Nixon, who made that more or less inevitable with his Southern strategy. Yeah, the fundies were working their bolt even that far back - they just didn't blossom into full fascist lunacy until around Reagan's time.

Interesting article about him the other day, how he wasn't really an amiable dunce - which makes one wonder then about Iran-contra, and the hostage release, and what the hell he thought he was doing with the budget if he did in fact understand arithmetic.

(in reply to Moonhead)

Post #: 66

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:38:56 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

but "Thank God for 9/11" crosses the line

So, how do you feel about Pat Robertson & Jerry Falwell saying the same thing, that 9/11 was god's punishment for tolerating lezzies?

I figure that Phelps Co is so small that they understand that assholarity is their market niche - while Robertson is big enough to hire PR flacks to tell him that his market share is too big, and will suffer big $$ if he actually connects his theories to events that piss people off. Don't be talking about 9/ll or Dale Earnhardt, no way.

(in reply to defiantbadgirl)

Post #: 67

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:43:45 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

mental illness if it were one or two or even 10 people

"mental illness" is any pattern of maladaptive behavior. See the DSM. Obviously, large groups of people can be emotionally committed to seriously evil projects.

(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 68

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:48:22 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Funeral protesters first amendment rights trumped by second amendment rights

What people commonly overlook is that no rights are absolute, and all of them wind up in some sort of balance - if a cop thinks you started something - eg waving a gun in somebody's face - you're going up for assault, and nobody will talk about constitutional rights.

Sure the cops aren't always the best witnesses, but in a close call - as most are - they'll make the difference.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 69

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:52:34 PM

Jaybeee

Posts: 532
Joined: 2/2/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

You now have a "christian" who defames fallen soilders.

If they volunteered, then it's impossible to defame them. And a Christian should be the FIRST to denigrate anyone who agrees to commit murder.

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(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 70

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 2:54:47 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

will there be protestors at his funeral

My opinion would be that the best revenge is avoiding their drama altogether. At least as much as possible.

I'd still ride escort, and I'll bet the cops wouldn't bust me for an open exhaust.

But when *they're* dead, it's over.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)

Post #: 71

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 3:18:08 PM

ladynlord

Posts: 247
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline

I've read through the majority of all of these posts and the more I read, the angrier I get. Freedom of Speech is a wonderful thing, but it can be abused. Where do you draw the line? Really? If you were that father, and you had just lost your child in such a traumatic and sudden way, would you want some asshole picketing your child's funeral over something that has absolutely nothing to do with your child or you? Where does politics or religion play in this child's death? I doubt very seriously he joined our VOLUNTARY military for either of those purposes.

What the hell has happened to common decency? I don't care what religion or political party you claim, the actions of these people are atrocious, hateful, hurtful, inflamatory, loathsome, despicable, disrespectful, distasteful ... I think you get where I'm going. Our military deserves so much more respect and dignity than this. If it weren't for them, WBC, you and I wouldn't have these freedoms. I doubt very seriously the founding fathers ever envisioned the 1st Amendment being used to empower or protect lunatics like these "people".

Now, here's My use of Freedom of Speech. I want the WBC to know that I do not like them. I do not like what they preach. I do not like what they represent. I do not like how they conduct themselves. I do not believe they are a church, I believe they are a cult. I hope that one day they get exactly what they have dished out.

Enjoy it now, WBC. It will all come back to haunt you some day. I will be waiting patiently, so I can enjoy THAT day!

Mistress Karly (really pissed off)

_____________________________

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(in reply to jack8007)

Post #: 72

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 3:21:14 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: jack8007

quote:

Court made the right decision

Hard to argue with an 8-1 decision. I haven't read it, and won't have the time - but I'm surprised at the suggestion that it's not possible to regulate the time/manner/place of protests so that public (or private) functions aren't disrupted.

Maybe we can set up one of those free speech zones that Bush was so fond of.

(in reply to jack8007)

Post #: 73

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/3/2011 3:26:27 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladynlord

I've read through the majority of all of these posts and the more I read, the angrier I get. Freedom of Speech is a wonderful thing, but it can be abused. Where do you draw the line? Really? If you were that father, and you had just lost your child in such a traumatic and sudden way, would you want some asshole picketing your child's funeral over something that has absolutely nothing to do with your child or you? Where does politics or religion play in this child's death? I doubt very seriously he joined our VOLUNTARY military for either of those purposes.

What the hell has happened to common decency? I don't care what religion or political party you claim, the actions of these people are atrocious, hateful, hurtful, inflamatory, loathsome, despicable, disrespectful, distasteful ... I think you get where I'm going. Our military deserves so much more respect and dignity than this. If it weren't for them, WBC, you and I wouldn't have these freedoms. I doubt very seriously the founding fathers ever envisioned the 1st Amendment being used to empower or protect lunatics like these "people".

Either you have freedom of speech or you don't.

When you start deciding which freedom of speech should be limited because it offends you then you no longer have freedom of speech.

< Message edited by rulemylife -- 3/3/2011 3:28:09 PM >

(in reply to ladynlord)

Post #: 74

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/4/2011 1:40:06 PM

ladynlord

Posts: 247
Joined: 1/27/2006
Status: offline

Rule,

You're right. We should all have the freedom to say whatever We want at all times. But We don't. I'll give you just one example and then I'm done. If I were to stroll through the mall and then just start saying, not addressing anyone as such, but just say the word nigger (or more popularly "the N word"), I guarantee you not only would I offend someone, there would be all sorts of problems to follow Me around for the rest of My life. It's called hate speech and there are legal penalties for it now.

In this politically correct society, We only have the freedom of speech as long as it doesn't offend someone.

_____________________________

‘The radical invents the views. When he has worn them out the conservative adopts them.’

— Mark Twain

_____________________________________________

¿uǝddɐɥ sıɥʇ pıp ʞɔnɟ ǝɥʇ ʍoɥ˙˙˙˙ǝɯ ןןǝʇ ʎpoqǝɯos

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 75

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/4/2011 3:54:03 PM

jack8007

Posts: 392
Joined: 8/14/2007
Status: offline

quote:

only have the freedom of speech as long as

Freedom of speech is one of the most basic and strongly defended constitutional rights.   You can see the Supreme Court ruled 8-1 that any asshole can picket any funeral - and here's the key issue - as long as there's no ordinances against it.   From scanning parts of the decision, it looks as if the critical issue is that there was no local ordinance covering the issue.

There's a whole line of cases describing how there can be reasonable limits of time, manner and place on free speech.   You can't go marching through a residential area at 6 am on Sunday morning with a brass band in the name of free speech.   If that city had an ordinance providing reasonable limits on picketing funerals (offhand I'd say out of shouting range, say 100 yards, of a funeral procession) then I'd bet it would have gone the other way.

There's plenty of other limits on free speech - copyright, defamation, provocation (picking a fight), and nuisance (shouting fire in a crowded theater), and state secrets.

What's more, free speech DOES NOT apply to private relations, as any married man can tell you.   It only applies to government restrictions, and in fact, one of the regular arguments is over free speech in apparently public places where there is some claim to private ownership - shopping malls, the internet, etc.

I can understand people seeing only part of these issues and being pissed off before the internet came along - but you know, you can find all this stuff on wikipedia now, and still people would rather complain than look it up.

(in reply to ladynlord)

Post #: 76

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/4/2011 4:13:23 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: a49015Dom4subF

I'm curious,

Why does a discussion like this always have to degrade into a right vs. left argument? These people are loons, plain and simple.

I'm curious too.

Why do we keep having people ask these questions?

Their primary focus is anti-gay, along with anti-abortion, and a few other things which scream right-wing.

Rule, you think I'm "right-wing", but, I'm not religious *at all.*
Do you have to be religious or "hyper-religious" to be "right-wing? What if you are an atheist? Will they let you into the right-wing club then?
Stereotypes don't always work.
Perhaps you're confusing politics with... religion?
If I were a Republican or Demorat Boss I'd outright "BAN" these people from joining my club!

I didn't say anything about religion Popeye.

I really don't consider them a church despite what they try to call themselves.

They are a cult led by old Fred who has managed to indoctrinate his entire extended family into his beliefs.

But you cannot deny anti-gay marriage and anti-abortion are part of the stated Republican platform.

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 77

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/4/2011 4:24:24 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ladynlord

Rule,

You're right. We should all have the freedom to say whatever We want at all times. But We don't. I'll give you just one example and then I'm done. If I were to stroll through the mall and then just start saying, not addressing anyone as such, but just say the word nigger (or more popularly "the N word"), I guarantee you not only would I offend someone, there would be all sorts of problems to follow Me around for the rest of My life. It's called hate speech and there are legal penalties for it now.

In this politically correct society, We only have the freedom of speech as long as it doesn't offend someone.

What exactly do you think would happen that would follow you around for the rest of your life?

You may offend someone but there are absolutely no legal consequences.

Now if you were to come up with a baseball bat and hit someone over the head while saying that then yes, you may be charged with a hate crime.

(in reply to ladynlord)

Post #: 78

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/4/2011 5:15:17 PM

Politesub53

Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline

Hate speech, as in incitement to violence, isnt free speech. Its a direct incitement to commit a crime, which makes the speaker an accessory to the fact. It should be treated as such.

(in reply to rulemylife)

Post #: 79

RE: funeral protestors protected by first amendment - 3/4/2011 5:31:10 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Hate speech, as in incitement to violence, isnt free speech. Its a direct incitement to commit a crime, which makes the speaker an accessory to the fact. It should be treated as such.

Well Polite, your country's laws on the subject don't match what we have here.

And it takes us down that interesting path of trying to determine what is hateful or inciting.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 80

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