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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 3:38:12 AM   
Politesub53


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Anax, you keep on about media bias, yet that was my problem with the OP. His ongoing use of dubious sources, not the link within the source per se.

You call RML an apologist for pointing out the obvious. There is still a lot of homophobia and inequality in the west, even within the Christian Church. Pointing it out doesnt make someone an apologist. 


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 4:54:47 AM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
Anax, you keep on about media bias, yet that was my problem with the OP. His ongoing use of dubious sources, not the link within the source per se.

If the source of the post that he put a link to was of good quality than why cast doubt on the story itself because that is what you did? The post he cited only had a sentence or two of commentary - most of it was a quote of the news source. You also made out that violent religious intolerence in Egypt is not the norm when in actual fact it is. Christians in the Middle East very often have to hide their churches and are typically not allowed display any religious symbols. A recent Pew poll also showed 84% of Egyptians support death for apostasy. This is borne out by reality - any conversions that don't favour Islam are met with intensive violence - it was a reason for the Christmas bomb attack in Egypt.

quote:


You call RML an apologist for pointing out the obvious. There is still a lot of homophobia and inequality in the west, even within the Christian Church. Pointing it out doesnt make someone an apologist. 

RML is an apologist. Pointing out the similarities when they are only commensurate with a great stretch of the imagination is hardly reasonable commentary. It would be akin to paralleling the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich with the Third Republic (France). There is homophobia and inequality in the West but trying to relativise this phenomenon to parallel it with many Islamic states really is an insult to those living with such oppression under such regimes. Conditions are not remotely similar - in some respects one would have to go back at least to the end of the Western Medieval era (1600's) to see real similarities.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 3/9/2011 5:14:43 AM >

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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 5:24:53 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

Anax, you keep on about media bias, yet that was my problem with the OP. His ongoing use of dubious sources, not the link within the source per se.


quote:

Anaxagoras
Media bias favouring Islam is well known and can be very extreme indeed, with many cases of serious persecution not reported or watered down to such an extent the reader is rarely able to understand who is to blame in conflict: http://www.meforum.org/2824/media-on-christian-persecution


Complaints of media bias by Anax are a constant. From memory, he has accused the BBC, The Guardian. The New York Times (accused apparently of running a "blood libel" against Israel no less!) The Irish Times and a host of other respected news organisations of bias. So I thought I might check out one of his recommended media outlets for bias, just to see what Anax thinks is fair and objective.

The Middle East Forum at http://www.meforum.org (recommended by Anax in post #40 this thread) is one of Daniel Pipes projects. You can find out about Daniel Pipes here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes.
It's well worth reading if you wish to understand what Anax means by unbiased.

If you can't be bothered (and personally I wouldn't blame you) here's a few notable facts from Mr Pipes CV:
*pin up boy for the neo-cons 1995-c2004;
*cheer leader for the Vietnam War;
*cheerleader for the Iraq invasion by G W Bush;
*currently cheerleader for a military first strike against Iran;
*founder of the McCarthyesque Campus Watch website;
*opponent of the establishment of a Palestinian State; and
*advocate of terrorism to overthrow the Iranian regime.

If you still haven't grasped how unbiased Mr Pipes is about things Islamic, try these quotes:

"In The Nation, Brooklyn writer Kristine McNeil describes Pipes as an "anti-Arab propagandist" who has built a career out of "distortions... twist[ing] words, quot[ing] people out of context and stretch[ing] the truth to suit his purpose."[25] James Zogby argues that Pipes possesses an "obsessive hatred of all things Muslim", and that "Pipes is to Muslims what David Duke is to African-Americans". Christopher Hitchens, a fellow supporter of the Iraq War and critic of political Islam, has also criticized Pipes, arguing that Pipes pursues an intolerant agenda, "confuses scholarship with propaganda", and "pursues petty vendettas with scant regard for objectivity." [30] wiki op cit.

Clearly recommending anything connected with Mr Pipes and Muslims as unbiased demonstrates a complete failure to understand the meaning of the word 'biased'. The dictionary meaning of biased is as follows:

verb (biases, biasing, biased)
[with object]
1 cause to feel or show inclination or prejudice for or against someone or something:
readers said the paper was biased towards the Conservatives
editors were biased against authors from provincial universities"

http://oxforddictionaries.com/view/entry/m_en_gb0075520;jsessionid=FDD7F2345801E0437498B8983372AA6B#m_en_gb0075520

There really is nothing more to say.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/9/2011 6:15:05 AM >


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 5:38:50 AM   
Aneirin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961


quote:

ORIGINAL: truckinslave

Here's another way of saying: "yes, Islam is the problem" which no one else was intelligent enough, to see:

Professor Kuran’s research suggests that, at least looking forward, the more correct view is: Islam isn’t the problem and it isn’t the solution, it’s simply a religion — meaning that the break is over, there are no excuses, and it’s time to move forward again.

I.E. Stop practicing Islam.



Self proclaimed Christians are killing people, abortion doctors, protestants in Northern Ireland...

I.E stop practicing Christianity



Those that call themselves religious, i.e. following the teachings of their god are harming and killing people worldwide...

I.E. stop practising religion.

Believe what you want to believe, but don't get organised into 'clubs' and there listen to an interpreter you don't need.

As interpreters, what are they, mad, deluded or just bad, that is if they believe themselves, but it is being reported that even some interpreters no longer believe in the miracles or the fact god can speak to them.So, what are they saying to their expectant congregation.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/9/2011 5:39:56 AM >


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 6:26:43 AM   
truckinslave


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I want the KKK and the Aryan nations to suddenly morph into a religion.

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2. Sharia is barbaric, homophobic, violent, and inimical to the most basic Western values (including free speech and freedom of religion). (Yeah, I know: SEE: Irony 101).
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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 6:28:21 AM   
mnottertail


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The SS was trying for that, when they were interrupted by events.

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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 8:39:56 AM   
jack8007


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quote:

religions are not the problem, commercialization of "life" at large and the destruction of culture as a result IS the problem


You're telling us that various conflicting beliefs in different kinds of magic are not the problem, but dealing with each other cooperatively to solve immediate needs is the chief problem of civilization, because your culture involves a lot of irrational hocus-pocus and leaving the mess to others.

If that's your value system, don't be surprised if people leave you to stew in it.   Watching various Somali or American evangelical tribes trying to tear each other's throats out is interesting in a sociological sort of way, but there's a serious danger it can get loose in the streets, so don't be surprised if people talk about exactly when you should be cuffed.

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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 9:24:41 AM   
tweakabelle


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I'm glad you have had a chance to put your perspective and am quite happy to leave things as they are and let people judge for themselves. Except for one matter which I feel needs clarification. It is possible that this particular matter was overlooked through no fault of yours at all.

I charged that Pipes is an "advocate of terrorism" re the Iran regime. I was most surprised by the failure to address this point, especially as you are such a vocal and vociferous critic of terrorism. It is possible that you missed this line, as it was added as an edit after the original post was submitted. It's only fair then that you get another chance to clarify your position on Mr Pipes advocacy of terrorism.

Here's what wiki says on the matter:
"Pipes has previously advocated that the U.S. "unleash" the Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK) against Iran.[67] Though MEK is listed as a terrorist group by the United States, the European Union, Canada, Iraq and Iran,[68] Pipes describes this listing as a "sop to the mullahs". He writes, "the MEK poses no danger to Americans or Europeans, and has not for decades. It does pose a danger to the malign, bellicose theocratic regime in Tehran."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

Defending such an open advocate of terrorism does have certain implications. Silence here might lead some to suspect that your aversion to terrorism extends only to the 'other side's' terrorism and you have no qualms about your own side using terrorism. I do hope that is not the case and so, a clear statement of your position re: Mr Pipes' advocacy of terrorism will be helpful.

Apart from that issue, everyone has plenty of evidence to form their own conclusions.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/9/2011 9:32:26 AM >


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 11:53:00 AM   
tweakabelle


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Thanks Anax for your response, and detailing both the extent and the nature of your 'opposition' to terrorism.

I'm sure everyone will draw the appropriate conclusion.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/9/2011 11:54:06 AM >


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 12:29:35 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras

If the source of the post that he put a link to was of good quality than why cast doubt on the story itself because that is what you did? The post he cited only had a sentence or two of commentary - most of it was a quote of the news source. You also made out that violent religious intolerence in Egypt is not the norm when in actual fact it is. Christians in the Middle East very often have to hide their churches and are typically not allowed display any religious symbols. A recent Pew poll also showed 84% of Egyptians support death for apostasy. This is borne out by reality - any conversions that don't favour Islam are met with intensive violence - it was a reason for the Christmas bomb attack in Egypt.


You are getting ahead of yourself again. Did you note thet itle Truckin gave the link Lets make up a reason to kill some Copts  This, despite his own link not mentioning the deaths of Copts, but of Muslims.

Now if you take that into account, along with the source he was reading, what do you deduce about his motives ? Is he a reasonable newsreader who posts genuine news articles, or does he trawl the web for Islamophobic articles ?

I wont even touch his comment about "I want the KKK and the Aryan nations to suddenly morph into a religion." Only to say it isnt the first time he has made this type of remark. 


quote:



RML is an apologist. Pointing out the similarities when they are only commensurate with a great stretch of the imagination is hardly reasonable commentary. It would be akin to paralleling the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich with the Third Republic (France). There is homophobia and inequality in the West but trying to relativise this phenomenon to parallel it with many Islamic states really is an insult to those living with such oppression under such regimes. Conditions are not remotely similar - in some respects one would have to go back at least to the end of the Western Medieval era (1600's) to see real similarities.


You are equating this with "Many islamic states" Truckin equates it with the whole of Islam. If he had stated the same as you he would have a point, he didnt, hence my post.



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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 2:14:27 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Anaxagoras
If the source of the post that he put a link to was of good quality than why cast doubt on the story itself because that is what you did? The post he cited only had a sentence or two of commentary - most of it was a quote of the news source. You also made out that violent religious intolerence in Egypt is not the norm when in actual fact it is. Christians in the Middle East very often have to hide their churches and are typically not allowed display any religious symbols. A recent Pew poll also showed 84% of Egyptians support death for apostasy. This is borne out by reality - any conversions that don't favour Islam are met with intensive violence - it was a reason for the Christmas bomb attack in Egypt.


You are getting ahead of yourself again. Did you note thet itle Truckin gave the link Lets make up a reason to kill some Copts  This, despite his own link not mentioning the deaths of Copts, but of Muslims.

The article that was referenced in the link stated that several Church officials had apparently disappeared, which would naturally lead to the suspicion they had been killed in the destructive violence on the Church. Secondly the Muslims killed were murdered by members of their own faith - not Christians which could be implied by your assertion. Thirdly they chanted Allah Akbar when the Church was destroyed. Although only translating as "God is great" this is a triumphal jihadist chant that terrorists also chant before killing others.

quote:


Now if you take that into account, along with the source he was reading, what do you deduce about his motives ? Is he a reasonable newsreader who posts genuine news articles, or does he trawl the web for Islamophobic articles ?

No I didn't say he is not an impartial newsreader. We all have strong feelings on various issues and clearly this is one of his. You however were asserting he is an islamophobe for the justifiable reasons he asserted on here.

quote:


I wont even touch his comment about "I want the KKK and the Aryan nations to suddenly morph into a religion." Only to say it isnt the first time he has made this type of remark. 

He believes Islam is a fascistic religion because of its treatment of other faiths, women and homosexuals. Again judging by the actions of many leaders and some followers in a variety of different cultures I would suggest that's not an off the wall interpretation. There may well be a destructive element in this theology over and above that of Christianity. Its unlikely to merely be a coincidence most religious conflict in the world today involves Islam. This is not to say a majority of Muslims are extremists but rather to point to a self-evident fact.

quote:

quote:


RML is an apologist. Pointing out the similarities when they are only commensurate with a great stretch of the imagination is hardly reasonable commentary. It would be akin to paralleling the anti-Semitism of the Third Reich with the Third Republic (France). There is homophobia and inequality in the West but trying to relativise this phenomenon to parallel it with many Islamic states really is an insult to those living with such oppression under such regimes. Conditions are not remotely similar - in some respects one would have to go back at least to the end of the Western Medieval era (1600's) to see real similarities.

You are equating this with "Many islamic states" Truckin equates it with the whole of Islam. If he had stated the same as you he would have a point, he didnt, hence my post.

I recognise that not all Islamic states are extremist. Some fairly Westernised states like Albania and Turkey are fairly moderate as are areas of Islam found in Asia. I'm not Truckins keeper and don't know if he meant "all" but again it is not islamophobic to generalise if his observations about Islamic culture relate to vast swathes of Islamic culture itself

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 3/9/2011 2:19:22 PM >

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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 4:01:49 PM   
Politesub53


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"Secondly the Muslims killed were murdered by members of their own faith - not Christians which could be implied by your assertion."

Why are you not happy about me quoting a fact (Not implied or asserted) , when failing to address the point of the name Truckin gave the link.

I dont agree with you in the slightest, to suggest the problem is "Islam" IS Islamophobic and making out it isnt wont alter that fact. Say what you want, and I know you will, but I`m not up for a game of semantics with you.

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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 5:08:49 PM   
Anaxagoras


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
"Secondly the Muslims killed were murdered by members of their own faith - not Christians which could be implied by your assertion."

Why are you not happy about me quoting a fact (Not implied or asserted) , when failing to address the point of the name Truckin gave the link.


quote:

- older post - ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You are getting ahead of yourself again. Did you note thet itle Truckin gave the link Lets make up a reason to kill some Copts This, despite his own link not mentioning the deaths of Copts, but of Muslims.

Politesub you made this statement. The way in which you made the point suggested that the killing of muslims was not at the hands of their own. I'm not saying at all that it was deliberately done but it sounded like they did that. If Truckinslave had blamed Muslims for the killing of Copts when Copts had killed Muslims then I would say fair enough - that is below the belt. It was indeed misleading to make out Copts were murdered but look at it from another point of view. A large violent crowd completely destroyed a place of worship, and clearly the Christian community was afraid for their lives. There have been pogrom like attacks leading to murder before, and the article indicated two members of the church had disappeared. That's why from my perspective Truckins comment, whilst strictly incorrect and rightly criticised for over-reaction, isn't quite as objectionable as you make out.

quote:


I dont agree with you in the slightest, to suggest the problem is "Islam" IS Islamophobic and making out it isnt wont alter that fact. Say what you want, and I know you will, but I`m not up for a game of semantics with you.

Its not a game of semantics although in a way it has taken on that character. It is not inherently Islamophobic to say Islam is part of the problem. As Nonie Darwish said, Islam is a code of beliefs. Any belief system is open to criticism. If it can be shown to a reasonable extent that certain beliefs associated with the core Islamic faith cause very real harm then they should be criticised. This would go for any faith. Many aspects of Judaism and Christianity are the same. There are aspects of the Jewish Ultra Orthodox faith that are also oppressive. This goes to the heart of my point to you all along. Saying the problem is with faith X is not inherently illegitimate. If it cannot be substantiated through fact or reason then it is illegitimate but if it can be verified through those means then surely it is wrong to insulate that faith or code of ideas from criticism by making out it must be hate.

< Message edited by Anaxagoras -- 3/9/2011 5:17:01 PM >

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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/9/2011 8:36:07 PM   
Aneirin


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quote:

The article that was referenced in the link stated that several Church officials had apparently disappeared, which would naturally lead to the suspicion they had been killed in the destructive violence on the Church. Secondly the Muslims killed were murdered by members of their own faith - not Christians which could be implied by your assertion. Thirdly they chanted Allah Akbar when the Church was destroyed. Although only translating as "God is great" this is a triumphal jihadist chant that terrorists also chant before killing others.


I believe you are doing the Muslims a disservice by citing the use of the Tekbir as used by terrorists before they kill others, for the Tekbir; Allah Akbar, God is great , is used in many other areas of Islamic culture, much of which has sod all to do with the killing of others.

For example ;

The Muslims use Allah Akbar in their prayers
Allah Akbar was written in the centre of Iraq's national flag
Allah Akbar is written 22 times on the flag of Iran
Allahu Akbar is the title of Libya's national anthem
Allah Akbar is uttered by Muslims when fasting and whilst on pilgrimage ( the Haj)

and finally,

Allah Akbar is shouted by Muslims enaged in Jihad, but you have to understand what Jihad actually is before you can draw a conclusion, for it is not what many think it is.


The Concept of Jihad ('Struggle') in Islam

And if you really care about what is happening in this world, you would be best advised to educate yourself, else you will be swept along on a tide of hatred fuelled by those with agenda.


And from that venerable sage ;Wikipedia ;

The Takbīr or Tekbir (تَكْبِير) is the Arabic name for the phrase Allāhu Akbar (الله أكبر). Usually translated "God is [the] Greatest," or "God is Great", it is a common Islamic Arabic expression, used as both an informal expression of faith and as a formal declaration.

This phrase is recited by Muslims in many different situations. For example, when they are very happy, to express approval, to praise a speaker, or as a battle cry, during times of extreme stress. In the Islamic world, instead of applause, often someone will shout takbir and the crowd will respond "Allahu Akbar" in chorus.
The phrase is said during each stage of both obligatory prayers (performed five times a day), and supererogatory prayers (performed at will). The Muslim call to prayer (adhan) by the muezzin and to commence prayer (iqama) also contains the phrase.[2]

Oh, why do I care, I am not of any side in this, not one of the Abrahamic beliefs, but I do care, I care because one day it will happen, the clash of religions, the warring three will fight for supremacy and in the fray, many, many innocent people will be unjustly killed, world war three. The only way to stop this war, is by fighting for religious tolerance and fighting with the weapon of truth, education above agenda.







< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/9/2011 8:39:01 PM >


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/10/2011 6:50:14 AM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

Whatever their problems are they are going to be addressed in the near future. Unless a country is being ruled over by a strict dictator that has some how managed to prohibit the use of computers and the receiving of the interwebz, change it is a coming.

It can't be stopped. Now people have the ability to communicate and to see what life is actually like outside the confines of their own walls.

Whatever Islam is or isn't is irrelevant. Nothing is going to stand in the way of this type of a tide

In time it will consume everything.


Yep. People can both acquire knowledge, and organise, like never before. Tough titties on the dictators - at least two of their most important tools are becoming redundant. By crackey are we going to see some changes in the coming decades.


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/10/2011 8:22:04 AM   
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Some reminders:

Please do not discuss someone who is not participating on a thread.

Please refrain from turning the discussion away from the topic and towards a particular poster.

When half the posts are pulled for these reasons, we may pull the whole thread and let it start over.

Mod21


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/11/2011 8:44:04 PM   
tweakabelle


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Earlier in the thread, there was some discussion of the respective roles of Arab stagnation and Western interference in the ME conflicts.

The link refers to a review in the respected liberal UK paper, the Guardian. It contains some facts relating to the role of the West, esp the British in the events up to and including the foundation of Israel. It's one example of how local interests (of both Arabs and Jews) played second fiddle to the needs of British Imperialism. Please remember that the review is about a work of fiction based on historical fact. But it does make for uncomfortable reading for those who believe that a benevolent West is engaged in peace-making for altruistic reasons.

The notion of thinking about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict as a post-colonial problem rarely gets airing on these threads. Yet this perspective is fundamental to understanding aspects of the conflict. Personally I neither endorse or reject the argument in the review.

I do suggest it's good reading for those seeking a deeper understanding of the conflict, and of how destructive the relatively short period of imperial influence in the region was. Enjoy!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/mar/04/the-promise-peter-kosminsky

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/11/2011 8:55:59 PM >


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/12/2011 5:14:41 AM   
Politesub53


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Tweaks, words fail me. Not wishing to stay off topic but imperialism seems to have been around in the ME long before Britain came on the scene. Without wishing to absolve Britain of the part it played, it was far from the only player in the region. It didnt just start in 1917 either, there was a call for a Jewish State long before that.


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RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/12/2011 9:17:38 AM   
Aneirin


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The aspect of the middle east I have a deep interest with, is the cultural aspect, it has always been so, their art and music I just love, and it is even influencing my own art work, for I am using something based on Cairo ware, the practice of inlaying metals into other metals, so history of the region I have to study. With my study I have long since come to the conclusion, the area now known as Turkey controlled most of the Arab world for the best part of a thousand years via various empires,the Mamluk and Ottoman empires, being the most famous, both empires spread their influence far and wide, for it can still be found in Arab countries that have long since thrown off the Turkish yoke. In fact I believe it was the dying British Empire that rid Arabia of the Ottomans, which the movie Lawrence of Arabia gives a bit of insight into, and the backroom wheeler dealing that went on because remember for one country to rid another country of an undesirable, there has to be something profitable in it for that helping nation, for trade has to have profit to motivate it.

Culturally, I am aware Victorian Britain meddled with the mindset of many of the region, created prejudice and rigidity where there was none before, but Victorian Britain is known as an age where everyone was prim and proper on the surface, but sleazy underneath, I pity those regions that tolerated the Victorian colonial mentality, a mentality that used and abused wherever it went, such was the arrogance of the colonial.

But back to the topic, I agree with Professor Kuran, regarding the fact that Islam it is not the entire problem, and by that, the entire solution, but what has to be remembered, is religion seems to ensnare the poor and oppressed so for any improvement to be made leading to a prosperous future, a future they had in the past, the poor have to be part of the solution, otherwise the poor under the banner of religion will resist any change, for it occurs religious leaders are in fact politicians and politicians as we know, do not tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth all the time, they only tell what they need others to know to get them motivated and there are many religious leaders that just love their position at the head of the pile. Position and power has the ability to change people, change them from the best into the worst as has been demonstrated worldwide with many a leader become tyrant.

But Islam many see as becoming more aggressive, what has to be asked is why it is becoming aggressive, what has happened to make it so, what is the antagonist ?

Israel, i don't believe it is entirely that, it annoys, that is obvious, but perhaps it has only become a focus due to something else, something else is responsible, what is it ?

Perhaps the current unrest in the region, people fighting for and seeking democracy is that thing, the right to be counted, not told how to live. I personally believe with a democratic Middle East Israel will be forgotten.

And with that, it is hoped Israel will deal with a democratic middle east to find a better solution for the Palestinian problem, as it occurs powerful nations will not deal with anyone when threat is all that is being offered.


< Message edited by Aneirin -- 3/12/2011 9:27:53 AM >


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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Is Islam the Problem? - 3/12/2011 11:56:59 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Politesub53
Tweaks, words fail me. Not wishing to stay off topic but imperialism seems to have been around in the ME long before Britain came on the scene. Without wishing to absolve Britain of the part it played, it was far from the only player in the region. It didnt just start in 1917 either, there was a call for a Jewish State long before that.




Please don't shoot the messenger Politesub :)

To me the points you make are perfectly valid. As I stressed in my earlier post, I neither endorse nor reject the piece.

What stood out to me in the article was the similarity between the claims of the British to 'keep the warring parties apart' and the actual role played by the British back then, and the current role of the US in the region.

Also, it seemed to me that the injection of new information and perspectives into the discussion here would benefit the discussion generally. The role of the 'West' in fomenting and maintaining the conflict is surely relevant. So, the article was offered more as a discussion paper than a personal view.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 3/12/2011 11:58:22 AM >


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(in reply to Politesub53)
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