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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 9:09:43 AM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



metaphysics....

the soul lives on

it is how society gathers

soul is found in what is known as the abstract or fictional element, that which can be derived and is known in metaphysics which lead to theology a further study of the derivatives.

in law you have man woman and what is between them, the obligation or contract or trust take your pick all synon for this purpose

the soul is the impartation of the whole body of "truth" to the next generation, the sum of all experience, knowledge and wisdom all of which belong to the metaphysical group studied and analysed using theology among other things.



Bullshit!

A creation by people who cannot accept that this is all there is.

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 10:34:09 AM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?


Gosh Tazzy, I don't know. I can tell you when my daughter became a real being to me. I can tell you when she started becoming a "person" to me. That is not really the right word, but it will have to do.

She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her.

"Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own.

That was MY experience. It really does not work as a definition because I cannot have that experience for anyone else.

That is the best I can do for answering your question.


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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 10:50:47 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

thats where courts overstepped their bounds.

making a "legal" determination to give people an arbitrary line by which to justify that which no man has a right to determine for another.

Rather then err on the side of caution they took it upon themselves to become like gods didnt they.


Im not exactly sure what you are saying, RO. Is it your contention that each person... in this case woman, because men dont have the ability to get pregnant yet... and I do mean yet... has the right to decide for themselves? Or are you saying that the courts never should have made the determination of when its legal or not?


commercial us courts deciding an ecclesiastic matter?  worse people accepting it?  whats wrong with this picture?


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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 10:52:39 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

The sentient definition is fraught with peril.  This would allow the wholesale snuffing of a great number of people out of hand.

Those of us who don't see the soul in a religious context and consider conciousness or even unconsiousness in no wise equivalent to sentient.........

Well, it is very problematical. 



its not a tough distinction, they are either zombies or they are sentient

if you want to extend it to things that are not sentient then everything is out of wack.

However iron does not know you are about to kill it, so how can you kill anything that is not sentient.

Sentience of course being extended to all human life regardless of the condition of the body once born.  that is the only real grey area on this basis and if people err on the caution then what does it matter?



It would matter in the same way that since no proof of a conspiracy exists, that is the definition used for proof of a conspiracy existing.
wtf are you talking about


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 10:54:06 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne



metaphysics....

the soul lives on

it is how society gathers

soul is found in what is known as the abstract or fictional element, that which can be derived and is known in metaphysics which lead to theology a further study of the derivatives.

in law you have man woman and what is between them, the obligation or contract or trust take your pick all synon for this purpose

the soul is the impartation of the whole body of "truth" to the next generation, the sum of all experience, knowledge and wisdom all of which belong to the metaphysical group studied and analysed using theology among other things.



Bullshit!

A creation by people who cannot accept that this is all there is.



ah thanks!  bullshit, well that resolves the matter with the utmost clarity

you will get the no-bell prize


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 25
RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 10:57:25 AM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?


Gosh Tazzy, I don't know. I can tell you when my daughter became a real being to me. I can tell you when she started becoming a "person" to me. That is not really the right word, but it will have to do.

you are correct becasue the term person is a legal term of a mask or fictional overlay on the body


She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her.

"Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own.

That was MY experience. It really does not work as a definition because I cannot have that experience for anyone else.

That is the best I can do for answering your question.



in ones own natural person is stated in law as "in persona propria"


_____________________________

"We the Borg" of the us imperialists....resistance is futile

Democracy; The 'People' voted on 'which' amendment?

Yesterdays tinfoil is today's reality!

"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session

(in reply to Aylee)
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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 11:04:31 AM   
LillyBoPeep


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quote:

ORIGINAL: StrangerThan


That's the real question, isn't it?  I once told someone in an argument (my brother actually) that when you can pull the thing out, stick a bottle in it's mouth and it sucks, you have life. Until then, you have a parasitic growth of cells that is utterly dependent on its host.

After watching a fetus grow from a few weeks into a child, I had to call him up and tell him he was mostly right. You watch it, week by week, it's pretty clear life exists and is no more dependent than  folks on life support in a hospital. As to the when, for me the only answer that makes sense is conception. What exists prior is a potential life. It's funny that we can, in science, describe single cell life in fossils or under a microscope, but get tongue tied when it is in someone's stomach.



i have to agree with you; it begins at conception for me. ask anyone who ever lost a "collection of cells" that they reeeeeeally really wanted. it's just as real to them from minute 1.


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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 11:42:36 AM   
Fellow


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quote:

Unfortunately there is no way a human can know when life begins. It is beyond our comprehension.....it is why it ties us up in knots over that question. There is not now or ever will be a definitive answer

I do not have any doubts from biology point of view. New human life begins when the egg cell is fertilized. Law defines it differently, and here I agree: all the definitions are arbitrary and for practical purposes only.

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 11:55:13 AM   
Louve00


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Aylee said it the easiest way for one who is accepting of the life they carry and consider it, are planning for it, and expecting it to be a life to care for as a baby.  That would make a human life a life (to that person) at conception.

Scientifically...or unemotionally...one single functioning cell is considered a life.  So a potential human life starts out with (ok) 2 cells and reproduces and develops into a baby.  But that 2 cell organism thats growing fastly within a females body cannot sustain itself without the willingness of the female holding it to keep it...or that females health.  I believe a human life begins when it can sustain itself, even with medical assistance, without the mother. 

< Message edited by Louve00 -- 3/9/2011 11:57:03 AM >


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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 11:55:29 AM   
Brain


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Life begins when the entity under consideration has a conscious, or as someone once said, " I don't believe embryos have souls."

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You have to define life before you can discuss when it begins.

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:04:54 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00


Aylee said it the easiest way for one who is accepting of the life they carry and consider it, are planning for it, and expecting it to be a life to care for as a baby.  That would make a human life a life (to that person) at conception.

Scientifically...or unemotionally...one single functioning cell is considered a life.  So a potential human life starts out with (ok) 2 cells and reproduces and develops into a baby.  But that 2 cell organism thats growing fastly within a females body cannot sustain itself without the willingness of the female holding it to keep it...or that females health.  I believe a human life begins when it can sustain itself, even with medical assistance, without the mother. 


Which is why the legal definition is based on when it first stands a chance of surviving in an incubator, rather than in the womb.

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:12:13 PM   
FukinTroll


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?


Here is an answer you probably didn't expect...

I decided to hang out the "In the Market" shingle because I am ready to really settle into the rest of my life. I should be able to cut down on the travel in the next 5-7 years so I am actively looking for a set of girls to enter my life, become a part of a life long commitment and be certain that the direction we are going in is one that we can maintain. The big allure to me is that my dynamic is firm, I am poly, nuthin will change that but I want more children and will not do so recklessly. I need to be sure that my girls (when I get them that is) are on the same page, course set and rudder locked in and we can sail away into the rest of our lives together.

I can feel this lil angelic spirit (yep, sounds goofy I know), but it is still present and persistent and I want that baby. I settled in, wrote a concise profile and am getting my affairs (particulars of long term residency) in order to bring this baby into the world with girls that are looking for what I am looking for and that we are compliment to each other.

So to answer the question, for me, I can feel this tiny spirit and once I have the proper life and environment to bring this tiny spirit into the world, right and proper factory in which to grow this model, conception would be the beginning of life. However, as odd as it may seem, I can feel this babe's spirit and want to do everything in my power to, one day, bring this baby into this world.


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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:39:19 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?


Human life begins when you start living it.

_____________________________


RC&dc


love isnt gazing into each others eyes - it's looking forward in the same direction

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:42:33 PM   
stellauk


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Let me start by asking people to listen to this song.

Kate Bush - Cloudbusting

You've probably heard the song.

The song is based on the book titled 'Book of Dreams' by Peter Reich. The opening line is 'I still dream of Orgonon'. In the book Peter Reich relates the experiences his father Willheim Reich had and the problems with the authorities in 1930's Austria. Willheim Reich was a student of Freud, a psychiatrist who advocated sexual freedom, believing in the 'orgone', a sort of spiritual energy which existed in all living beings and the atmosphere which could be exploited to bring happiness and pleasure. He developed a machine called The Cloudbuster, a machine which would burst the clouds and release the orgone into the atmosphere.

This is what the song is about.

The thing is, you've probably heard this song before. What is more if you stop and think you will probably be able to remember quite clearly what you were doing at the time, where you were, the people in your life, and will be able to immediately recall your life experiences from that time into conscious thinking.

This is drama.

Now you might think that drama is movies, or theatre, or television programmes. It isn't. That is dramatic art.

Drama is the cognitive thought process which associates creativity with relationships and life experiences and records them into long term or psychic memory. Furthermore drama can be seen as any experience which promotes living existence and the development of the relationship between the physical and metaphysical, or if you prefer, the natural and the spiritual.

I would define life as the coexistence of spiritual energy within biological or anatomical matter existing within the same time and space dimension in the form of a being capable of independent creativity.

Drama can be seen as the driving force or motivating factor behind evolution. Everything in the Universe is in some way relative to everything else. We are individual components of the Universe, existing within the physical and metaphysical dimensions.

This gives three core principles of existence - individuality, binarity, and cyclicity. These principles apply equally to the Universe as a whole, which is constantly evolving, the same can be said of Nature, and the same can be said of Mankind. Anything spontaneously created from spiritual energy is individual, no two people are exactly the same, no two living beings. Creativity cannot take place without some sort of binarity and interaction. No life form can reproduce itself physically without sexual interaction or intercourse, i.e. male and female.

All change and motion is cyclical in nature, each cycle being individual and part of a binary set of characteristics.

Spiritual energy is unique, for unlike natural forms of energy it is incapable of uniform motion or change, and also unlike natural forms of energy it is also capable of spontaneous activity and creativity. Try to throw a ball through the air and each time the cycle of motion and arc produced will be individual and never uniform. Even though the ball each time is carried through the air on kinetic energy and the physical coordination and perception is also based within natural energy but that impulse which produces the coordination of motor nerves and force required to propel the ball through the air comes from spiritual energy.

Basic human nature is preoccupied with creativity and interaction. It is not possible for anything to exist anywhere in the Universe without being a component element of a relationship. The first five years of life are taken up by exploration, investigation, discovery and developing one's perception of the reality which exists around oneself and understanding how one relates to others and the world around them.

However around the age of six a child changes in nature and starts to think and organize all this information into some sort of structure, developing a general objective in life, a Mythos or character (how one perceives oneself and the 'legend' used to explain and define oneself to others) and a strategy for relating to other people. This is based on emotional reasoning, there is no logical thought process, the child is yet to be educated and this process completes itself around the age of seven forming a Life Script, which together with early childhood experiences and parental relationships remains a strong influence determining the outcome of one's life and influencing one's decision making with regard to relationships.

This I believe is evidence of reincarnation, as is that constant need for contact with culture and creativity, with other people, with living experiences. This explains the relationship between dramatic art and creativity and drama itself, we look for things in music, books, films, art which relate to us specifically, we form attachments, build hopes and dreams. This is why most examples of human creativity, whether it be art, photography, music, films or books focus on relationships, thinking, expression and living existence.

The opposite of evolution is involution, which is the breaking down and separation of coexistent elements of life into its constituent parts, and trauma can be seen as the opposite of drama, that which works against the coexistence of the physical and metaphysical, death, illness, relationship breakdowns, decline, stress, fear, and so on.

Sleep is involution, a period of rest where sensory information and that which goes through the mind in conscious thinking can be processed, internalized, sorted and broken down whilst physically further spiritual energy can be drawn from the metaphysical plane to regenerate us for when we wake to greet another day.

I would say this cycle of sleep and wakefulness is relative to that of reincarnation.

The only constant in the Universe is change. I feel that states of permanent unchanging existence and non-existence are both illusions. Einstein himself stated back in 1905 in his Annus Mirabilis papers that 'that what exists cannot later not exist'.

I therefore do not believe that there is such a thing as the start or life, or an end, but see life and death as the binary of existence. There is no beginning and end, there is only transition and transformation, and living existence finds us existing in both the physical plane of existence and the metaphysical.

This I feel would explain the need for evolution and the dramatic cycles of creativity, interaction, and life because evolution and involution are only the two binary halves of change.

You cannot have change without some degree of evolution and involution taking place. Change cannot take place without the critical examination and breaking down of what exists into its constituent parts and the development of intuition, imagination and creativity to arrive at something different or better.

This is why we all need some form of creativity in our lives, because it inspires us, it motivates us to be creative ourselves in our thinking and interaction. This explains the importance of culture and cultural development for each of us and the evolution of society and Mankind as a whole. Culture is the shared awareness, understanding, knowledge and perception between any social group of people. It can exist in a family, a company or organization, a local community, a society or even across different societies. It shapes part of our identity, our thinking and our behaviour, and strongly influences how we interact with others.

Culture is developed by the creative self-expression of human individuality, creativity, diversity and the sharing of ideas and experiences between people. Culture is the benchmark of human evolution, and essential for social and spiritual evolution. When creativity is stifled and our individuality and diversity is inhibited evolution is stifled, as is drama, and involution occurs with the cultural decline and breakdown of society. This can take place when an attempt is made to control culture through a predominant political ideology or organized religious belief or when cultural development is left to market forces. This creates social tension and social division as people generally resent being told what to think and believe.

A prime example of this can be seen in Europe between Eastern and Western Europe where human diversity is generally better tolerated and accepted in the West and where the East, dominated by various totalitarian applications of socialism and organized religion has created a sort of cultural and social time warp where people are only just beginning to embrace diversity with relation to race, ethnicity and sexual orientations.

This was understood by Christ, who can be seen as the central figure of religious thinking, and who understood how involution can pull the human soul into two separate directions towards internal evil and external evil. Christ's message of individuality and non-conformity in spiritual and moral thinking carried a special evolutionary significance for Mankind as a whole. This explains why the core teachings of almost any religion are based on a central Christ-like messianic figure and core principles which advocate creativity and positive social interaction.

This explains the purpose of drama, evolution and living existence, or life, and that is to develop the spiritual awareness, understanding and perception which will enable us to work towards the survival of our existence through the cycle of reincarnation.

I believe it is possible to perceive the metaphysical in terms relative to how we perceive the physical, i.e. in terms of objective reality and in concepts which are accessible to logical understanding. We are part of the Universe and are subject to the same principles and therefore I honestly believe that the capacity for human knowledge and understanding is as infinite as the Universe itself.

We are limited only by limitations of perception but have that same cognitive capacity to learn and increase our awareness, we have the same ability to create and be creative because part of that mass of spiritual energy which drives the evolution of the Universe forward, understood to some in the concept of God, is an essential part of life and is what explains our presence here in the physical plane of existence.

Therefore for me the perceived start of life can be defined as when the metaphysical coexists with the physical to produce a life form capable of independent creativity. Where such a point exists relative to time, space and dimension is something I feel lies still beyond that what can be commonly perceived simply because the objective reality of metaphysical existence is so limited.

Each life form is individual, therefore I'm not entirely sure a common definite point can be established but like death can only remain a concept based on a consensus of experience.


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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:42:58 PM   
Aylee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?


Gosh Tazzy, I don't know. I can tell you when my daughter became a real being to me. I can tell you when she started becoming a "person" to me. That is not really the right word, but it will have to do.

you are correct becasue the term person is a legal term of a mask or fictional overlay on the body


She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her.

"Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own.

That was MY experience. It really does not work as a definition because I cannot have that experience for anyone else.

That is the best I can do for answering your question.



in ones own natural person is stated in law as "in persona propria"


RO you missed the point. I was not and am not using a scientific or legal definition. I am using MY experience with ONE individual and when those things happened for ME.

_____________________________

Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam

I don’t always wgah’nagl fhtagn. But when I do, I ph’nglui mglw’nafh R’lyeh.

(in reply to Real0ne)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:46:20 PM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
In the book Peter Reich relates the experiences his father Willheim Reich had and the problems with the authorities in 1930's Austria. Willheim Reich was a student of Freud, a psychiatrist who advocated sexual freedom, believing in the 'orgone', a sort of spiritual energy which existed in all living beings and the atmosphere which could be exploited to bring happiness and pleasure.


Willhelm Reich didn't just study under Freud: he was also dismissed by Freud as a nutcase and a crank (I think "schwarzwalderkirschtorte" was Freud's term, and he was a man who knew a thing or two about cake). It's worth bearing that in mind when you start bigging up people nobody besides Kate Bush and the late William Burroughs take very seriously.

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:47:31 PM   
DomYngBlk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomYngBlk

Unfortunately there is no way a human can know when life begins. It is beyond our comprehension.....it is why it ties us up in knots over that question. There is not now or ever will be a definitive answer




on the contrary there are several definitive answers, re-read what I said, I believe I covered all avenues "in general".



Sorry but you are wrong.....no matter how much you want to be right

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 12:55:57 PM   
kdsub


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Hi tazzygirl

I believe life started once…and continues without interruption. All the reproductive makings of a child for instance are alive before they are combined and begin to transform into another individual. So perhaps the question should be when does life become a new individual.

The child within a pregnant mother can not be a new individual until it is born.. It is part of the mother and cannot survive on its own even with a functioning brain…but no part of it was ever NOT living.

Butch

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 1:00:01 PM   
Moonhead


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Maybe Plato (I think)'s argument that the soul doesn't enter the body until it's been toddling around a bit and has learned to speak is germane here?

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(Simon R Green on the late James Herbert)

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RE: When does life begin? - 3/9/2011 1:03:22 PM   
TotalDiscipline


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?


a cell is the smallest living organism..but is it human..with feelings...? no clue
all depends on your emotions

_____________________________

Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law.
Love is the law, love under will.

shorten your answers to the essence

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Profile   Post #: 40
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