quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So we're talking about a fully formed nervous system (which come quite late in the second trimester, I think) as a bare minimum to qualify a bun in the oven as a human being, then.

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i have to agree with you; it begins at conception for me. ask anyone who ever lost a "collection of cells" that they reeeeeeally really wanted. it's just as real to them from minute 1.

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She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her.

"Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own.

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ORIGINAL: hlen5

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?

I agree that the fetus becomes "human" when the soul enters the body. If the soul leaves the body at death (discorporation), then I believe the soul enters the body with the baby's first breath.


I already had posted this in the thread DarkSteven started.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00


Aylee said it the easiest way for one who is accepting of the life they carry and consider it, are planning for it, and expecting it to be a life to care for as a baby.  That would make a human life a life (to that person) at conception.

Scientifically...or unemotionally...one single functioning cell is considered a life.  So a potential human life starts out with (ok) 2 cells and reproduces and develops into a baby.  But that 2 cell organism thats growing fastly within a females body cannot sustain itself without the willingness of the female holding it to keep it...or that females health.  I believe a human life begins when it can sustain itself, even with medical assistance, without the mother. 

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ORIGINAL: Brain

Life begins when the entity under consideration has a conscious, or as someone once said, " I don't believe embryos have souls."

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ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

You have to define life before you can discuss when it begins.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

quote:

ORIGINAL: Louve00


Aylee said it the easiest way for one who is accepting of the life they carry and consider it, are planning for it, and expecting it to be a life to care for as a baby.  That would make a human life a life (to that person) at conception.

Scientifically...or unemotionally...one single functioning cell is considered a life.  So a potential human life starts out with (ok) 2 cells and reproduces and develops into a baby.  But that 2 cell organism thats growing fastly within a females body cannot sustain itself without the willingness of the female holding it to keep it...or that females health.  I believe a human life begins when it can sustain itself, even with medical assistance, without the mother. 

Which is why the legal definition is based on when it first stands a chance of surviving in an incubator, rather than in the womb.

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
We are limited only by limitations of perception but have that same cognitive capacity to learn and increase our awareness, we have the same ability to create and be creative because part of that mass of spiritual energy which drives the evolution of the Universe forward, understood to some in the concept of God, is an essential part of life and is what explains our presence here in the physical plane of existence.

Therefore for me the perceived start of life can be defined as when the metaphysical coexists with the physical to produce a life form capable of independent creativity. Where such a point exists relative to time, space and dimension is something I feel lies still beyond that what can be commonly perceived simply because the objective reality of metaphysical existence is so limited.

Each life form is individual, therefore I'm not entirely sure a common definite point can be established but like death can only remain a concept based on a consensus of experience.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee
RO you missed the point. I was not and am not using a scientific or legal definition. I am using MY experience with ONE individual and when those things happened for ME.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

If you look at an acorn.. do you say... "Thats an acorn"? Or "thats an oak tree"?

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ORIGINAL: StrangerThan



That's the real question, isn't it?  I once told someone in an argument (my brother actually) that when you can pull the thing out, stick a bottle in it's mouth and it sucks, you have life. Until then, you have a parasitic growth of cells that is utterly dependent on its host.

After watching a fetus grow from a few weeks into a child, I had to call him up and tell him he was mostly right. You watch it, week by week, it's pretty clear life exists and is no more dependent than  folks on life support in a hospital. As to the when, for me the only answer that makes sense is conception. What exists prior is a potential life. It's funny that we can, in science, describe single cell life in fossils or under a microscope, but get tongue tied when it is in someone's stomach.

The only reason we do is that the question has huge implications in reproductive rights. If we identify a point where we say life exists, then the choice to terminate becomes a legally sanctioned form of murder. By my own description above, I believe abortion to be the taking of life, regardless of when the procedure occurs. Does that mean I'm anti-abortion? No. It means I'm sick of people offering up sanitized language in order to make folks feel better about what they're doing.

If I'm going to create a legal/illegal point, it would be a moving target, one defined by viability. Currently that's right around 21-22 weeks I think. I may be off a week or two. Sue me. Either way, somewhere around there. I think once life can exist outside the womb, there is nothing left to argue about in terms of whether life exists or not. It's there. It's living. It's breathing. It's thinking.

Much of the same is true the week before. The difference is viability outside the host. It is a boundary that medical science will continue to push back, which is why I say it's a moving target. Prior to that, I don't see much difference between abortion and choosing to withhold fluids from someone who is terminally ill. Both choices will achieve the end result which is the termination of a life.

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

She became a real being to me when I could feel her move. Hiccupping actually. I had had a few sonograms before that and she wasn't really 'real' until I could actually FEEL her.

"Personhood" came when I could see her deliberately moving around for some reason of her own.

What you described is commonly called "quickening". Its the moment the mother feels the baby move within her. And its varied for all women... from as early as 15 weeks to a woman who has already had a child, to as late as 22 weeks for a first time mother.

And I believe its at that moment that the baby becomes real to any mother.

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ORIGINAL: Aylee

In Judaism a fetus becomes a legal person with rights and a soul when it crowns. Up until this point abortion or doing something to cause a woman to loose a fetus is not murder. It is only damage, like cutting off an arm. However, a fetus does have some limited rights such as inheritance.

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"This word `person' and its scope and bearing in the law, involving, as it does, legal fictions and also apparently natural beings, it is difficult to understand; but it is absolutely necessary to grasp, at whatever cost, a true and proper understanding to the word in all the phases of its proper use ...

A person is here not a physical or individual person, but the status or condition with which he is invested...

not an individual or physical person, but the status, condition or character borne by physical persons... The law of persons is the law of status or condition."    

F.S.101(3) - The word "person" includes individuals, children, firms, associations, joint adventures, partnerships, estates, trusts, business trusts, syndicates, fiduciaries, corporations, and all other groups or combinations.    

F.S. 760.02  Definition (6)  "Person" includes an individual, association, corporation, joint apprenticeship committee, joint-stock company, labor union, legal representative, mutual company, partnership, receiver, trust, trustee in bankruptcy, or unincorporated organization; any other legal or commercial entity; the state; or any governmental entity or agency.  

26 U.S.C. 7701 – Definitions - (a) When used in this title, where not otherwise distinctly expressed or manifestly incompatible with the intent thereof - (1) Person - The term ''person'' shall be construed to mean and include an individual, a trust, estate, Partnership, association, company or corporation.  

  26 U.S.C. 7343 - Definition of term ''person'' The term ''person'' as used in this chapter [Chapter 75] includes an officer or employee of a corporation, or a member or employee of a partnership, who as such officer, employee, or member is under a duty to perform the act in respect of which the violation occurs 16 U.S.C. 5502 (7) 

The term ''person'' means any individual (whether or not a citizen or national of the United States), any corporation, partnership, association, or other entity (whether or not organized or existing under the laws of any State), and any Federal, State, local, or foreign government or any entity of any such government.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Here is a loaded question... and since among all the sciences and among all the religions there isnt an agreement...

when does Human life begin?

Why do you believe so?

quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
when does Human life begin?

A "fetus" becomes a "human being" at the point in time that it has a reasonable chance of surviving outside it's mother's womb.