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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 9:18:32 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

life, in my opinion, begins at conception


At fertilization. My question, when Im told this is someone's belief is... then why are embryo banks not targets?

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 11:50:18 AM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		I think it should be considered to begin when there is a conscious. Or, the brain has to develop and reach, using your word, a point where that life can take action to maintain the survival of itself.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 12:02:23 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brain

I think it should be considered to begin when there is a conscious.


Good thing it doesn't begin with the ability to write English correctly. You would have been buried long ago.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 12:07:33 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
Conception isn't an event. It's a process. Pregnancy itself is pretty much about that process.


Blasted Nature, not making it neat for us, eh?

All we can really say is that there was a point at which a human definitely didn't exist and another point, some time later, at which he or she definitely did exist.

Arguably, there aren't any singular points anywhere in nature. They are *all* processes. Singular points only exist in mathematics.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 12:11:44 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
Conception isn't an event. It's a process. Pregnancy itself is pretty much about that process.


Blasted Nature, not making it neat for us, eh?

All we can really say is that there was a point at which a human definitely didn't exist and another point, some time later, at which he or she definitely did exist.

Arguably, there aren't any singular points anywhere in nature. They are *all* processes. Singular points only exist in mathematics.


Fertilization and implementation are singlular events that arguably are when human life begins.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 12:37:53 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		There's plenty of other points that can be picked out as well, but admitting that won't endear you to the abortionist burners, will it?

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 12:46:28 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
Conception isn't an event. It's a process. Pregnancy itself is pretty much about that process.


Blasted Nature, not making it neat for us, eh?

All we can really say is that there was a point at which a human definitely didn't exist and another point, some time later, at which he or she definitely did exist.

Arguably, there aren't any singular points anywhere in nature. They are *all* processes. Singular points only exist in mathematics.


Fertilization and implementation are singlular events that arguably are when human life begins.


No, you could arguably suggest that life begins then, but not necessarily human life.
And not always viable life either.


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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 12:48:14 PM   
stellauk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk
Conception isn't an event. It's a process. Pregnancy itself is pretty much about that process.


Blasted Nature, not making it neat for us, eh?

All we can really say is that there was a point at which a human definitely didn't exist and another point, some time later, at which he or she definitely did exist.

Arguably, there aren't any singular points anywhere in nature. They are *all* processes. Singular points only exist in mathematics.


Fertilization and implementation are singlular events that arguably are when human life begins.


Fertilization can be seen as the start of biological life and I can see a clear distinction between biological life and human life. I do believe our closest natural relative is the chimpanzee, not the amoeba.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 1:08:37 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

...............I personally define life as the union of the physical and metaphysical - the body, spirit and mind coming together as one - that point being more or less when the embryo becomes a foetus.
..............I would suspect that this Act is more about removing the rights of women than protecting the rights of the unborn child.


I agree that the fetus becomes "human" when the soul enters the body. If the soul leaves the body at death (discorporation), then I believe the soul enters the body with the baby's first breath.

I am firmly and forever pro-choice, but as I've gotten older I consider abortion more and more a waste.

I definitely agree with what I underlined.

As far as considering killing a pregnant woman two murders, I'm afraid I don't agree. Unfortunately I think the assailant could only be charged with one murder. Part of me is torn about that.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 1:10:54 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

life, in my opinion, begins at conception


At fertilization. My question, when Im told this is someone's belief is... then why are embryo banks not targets?


Explain what you mean by targets.

Look, I am catholic, my view is strictly from that perspective.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 1:41:30 PM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Explain what you mean by targets.

Look, I am catholic, my view is strictly from that perspective.


If you are taking it from a Catholic POV, do you believe it because you were told it or read it?


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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 1:46:34 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc


quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

Explain what you mean by targets.

Look, I am catholic, my view is strictly from that perspective.


If you are taking it from a Catholic POV, do you believe it because you were told it or read it?




I believe it because at the point of conception, there is a new life beginning. Prior to that point, there are two individual cells that are nothing but the necessary components to start a life.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 2:24:31 PM   
PeonForHer


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961
I believe it because at the point of conception, there is a new life beginning. Prior to that point, there are two individual cells that are nothing but the necessary components to start a life.


I've seen both sperm and ova under a microscope - they've looked alive to me . . . .

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 3:26:35 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Explain what you mean by targets.

Look, I am catholic, my view is strictly from that perspective.


When invirtro is used, many eggs are fertilized... that is the time of conception. Eggs are implanted, and, typically, some are frozen for future use. They only keep them so long before thawing them out then incinerating them, unless the donors continue to pay for storage. But that isnt the point of this.

What would your religion call this if not murder based upon your definition?

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 3:33:50 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I agree that the fetus becomes "human" when the soul enters the body. If the soul leaves the body at death (discorporation), then I believe the soul enters the body with the baby's first breath.


This is another issue that is rarely spoken about. Aristotle and Aquinas believed that male fetuses had souls at 40 days, females at 80.

But, if we believe that embryo's are human beings with a soul at conception, what happens to the soul of those embryos that are frozen? Are they placed back into limbo? reassigned? dead?

I tend to believe its around 20 weeks... close to the age of viability.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 4:20:59 PM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		I think Aristotle and Aquinas's togas were wound a little too tight!!

Although it would be interesting if the fetus begins to create sex differential cells at that time.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 4:33:21 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		LOL... i wonder how they knew what the sex was because they used 40 days as a marker for abortions to be legal.

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 4:53:21 PM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RCdc


No, you could arguably suggest that life begins then, but not necessarily human life.
And not always viable life either.




arguably not necessarily not always

hmmm

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 5:56:10 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
tazzy, RO's argument is that it begins at a single point.  Which point it is, is not really in the topic of this thread.

I was hoping that a dual system could be set up.  It'd be hard as hell to implement, but as someone who believes in keeping abortions legal, it always pisses me off when a wanted fetus is murdered by some thug, and I wish that the legality of abortion was not the price that must be paid for not charging him with murder.


Is the cutoff point for *that* the same as viability? What happens to the thug who kills a fetus before 22 weeks? If they can't be charged with murder (or manslaughter), can they be charged with anything?

i'm very uneducated on this subject, but from what i understand about Roe v. Wade, viability is defined as the point that the "fetus" becomes a " human person", with a reasonable chance of surviving apart from it's mother. Because it's not known to be a "person" before viability (at least not by the current *legal* definition of the term), it's not considered to having "rights", and the mother's rights take precedence over the rights of the fetus, or the rights of the state. (The "state" may also have an interest in protecting the life of fetuses, but, for now, the Supreme Court has decided that the woman's rights to sovereignty over her reproductive system, are more important.) At viability, a fetus is considered to be a human being, and it's right to life needs to be protected.

i don't think there's any getting around it, Steven. i don't think you can define the same fetus as human in one case but not in another. And while i *totally* agree that "life" (or "humanity" for that matter) doesn't begin at a single point in time, for the sake of the law they had to define it discreetly. They can't say, humanity is something that happens continuously, by degrees, over the development of the fetus. That won't work as a legal standard for what "human life" is. They had to draw a line and say, okay, it's either on this side of the line, or it's on that side. And unfortunately that means that some thug who causes a miscarriage before 22 weeks can't be charged with murder, because you can't murder what's not considered to be a "human being" (yet...) in the first place.

i have to say, i think the law got it right. And yes, that SUCKS for anyone who's in the situation You describe. (Can the thug in that situation be charged with *any* crime at all, or just not "murder"?) But i think it's important to protect a woman's rights over her body, and you can't do that by having a dual system.

pam

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 3/9/2011 6:03:34 PM >

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RE: Does life begin at a single point? - 3/9/2011 6:03:37 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Falcor64

There are two different questions here- the first is when life begins and the second one is about sentience.

The first one is slippery because if you define "life" at fertilization, or even implantation, then many, many, many women become guilty of involuntary manslaughter. Easily half of all pregnancies end in spontaneous abortion, most before the mother even knows she's pregnant. All she'll know is that she had a heavy period.But, if the embryo is "alive" in any sort of legal sense, then someone has to be responsible for it's "death" too.

Sentience is defined as "self-awareness" and the first good evidence of that is not until about 20 months of age. The research on that point goes like this- take a toddler and put some rouge on his/her nose. Then let toddler see themselves in a mirror. The ones older than 20 months touched their noses, while the younger ones either did not react, or reached toward the mirror. The classic study here is Lewis & Brooks-Gunn (1979) if you're interested.



thats just rons way of retaliating LOL

you have to first start with the question what is life?  there are more than one way to determine what is and when is life.


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