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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 4:31:27 PM   
GreedyTop


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*snort*

I agree with Cali

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 5:13:24 PM   
VaguelyCurious


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


At the end of the day, it's a message board.  If it's really affecting someone that much, maybe they should shut the computer off and go outside.


I think for me this is what it comes down to.

Nothing on a forum is ever going to approach the cyber bullying of a child, for the simple reason that we *can* turn the computer off and not have to deal with it any more. The kid has to go into school and face the bullies the next day, and the day after, and the day after. Bad behaviour on a website that grown adults have *chosen* to be on is in no way comparable, and if said grown adults allow themselves to be hurt by it to the degree that a bullied child is hurt then that's a failure of personal responsibility on their parts, because they're clearly not cut out for the internet.

Do I deliberately set out to hurt people? Generally, no. Sometimes I'm guilty of playing to the crowd, but not often and only if I find the person I'm talking to seriously objectionable.

Does that make me sympathetic when people complain that others are being nasty to them? No. This isn't school. Posters are here of their own free will, and they need to take personal responsibility for any negative outcomes of their internet use.

<ed for typo>

< Message edited by VaguelyCurious -- 3/10/2011 5:15:24 PM >


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 5:36:04 PM   
GreedyTop


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*adores me some VC*

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 5:38:05 PM   
popeye1250


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La Tigresse, you're not responsable for what someone who reads your posts "thinks" about them or for what they "perceive" that you're saying.

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 5:46:17 PM   
barelynangel


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quote:

At the end of the day, it's a message board.  If it's really affecting someone that much, maybe they should shut the computer off and go outside.


WOW, this says it. but since i am a talker i will add my own words lol. 

To me, online, only you -- the person you are, have the power to allow what you read to effect you.  So if you decide to join a discussion and people or person responds to you in a way that hurts your feeling or feels aggressive etc, then 1) don't answer them and move along, 2) shut off the computer and find a place where you aren't so negatively affected by words you read, and 3) grow a thicker skin and realize that its a discussion.

Many people think of me as cold, a bitch, and knowing it all and having only one way -- well yes.  I am all of those because people online who don't know me perceive me based on my discussion style.  My question to that always is "and?" lol.  I don't bother to deny it or confirm it on my own perception based view, because they don't want to know anything but what they wish to perceive because of how my words AFFECT them.  Only they can decide to change it.   The same concept works with people who make themselves victims -- no one can change their perception of being victims because these people don't choose to do so because being a victim is comfortable to them.   I post for myself and my entertainment -- i don't post for some faceless people who may or may not read my posts.  When people tell me i should be posting for others -- i just don't get it.  Which people would that be?

But in the end, if anyone on this board feels intimidated, bullied or upset and hurt because of anything anyone posts, they need to turn off the computer and deal with reality.  Out of everything in the world -- online is a MAJOR place people with a victim mentality can feel in control and power.  If they choose not to utilize it and feel it, then no one can help them and they simply enjoy being a victim.  I have no sympathy or empathy for same.

So internet bullying by adults against adults -- i simply don't believe it is true -- adults should have their own power and understand that online you have the power to have the last word or last action -- turn off the computer and put the computer in perspective.


angel

< Message edited by barelynangel -- 3/10/2011 5:48:22 PM >


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:02:58 PM   
Arpig


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quote:

So where are your lines? Where do you step in? Do you, do you feel any obligation to monitor your words? Do you feel more free to be nasty via the net? Do you ever consider that the person you are about to attack might not think, feel, have the same capacity to deflect, understand, cope........as you do? Do you even give a shit......ever?
Short answer: It depends.

Long answer: I am volatile in my posting...sometimes I am a right asshole...sometimes I am cruel...sometimes I am playful. Just like in real life. If things inside my head get strange...so do I. I am at heart sadistic, and often I want to cause people pain and discomfort just for the fun of it, and sometimes I give in to that urge and am deliberately cruel.

If something somebody says pisses me off, then I don't really care if they can take it or not. On here I am generally in nice mode, because I like it here, and I like darn near everybody on here...even the assholes down in P&R...most of the super right-wingers and I are actually pretty good forum friends. There are a few other boards I sometimes haunt where I am not nice at all...I don't like them, so fuck their feelings and sensibilities, if they can't take it then they should stay in the kiddie pool.. I am pretty much the same way in real life...if I don't like you, then I really don't give a rat's ass about you.


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:10:06 PM   
DesFIP


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Like Greedy said, if the op of a thread starts with attacks and snarkiness, then I feel no requirement to be helpful.
Depending on the person posting, I sometimes am kinder than normally if I know the person has difficulties in life. Other than that, I will offer helpful advice as long as the poster sincerely wants it. If they don't want to change things but just want to vent, they should state that.

There comes a point when I will decide that I am wasting my time trying to teach a pig to whistle.


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:21:31 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
none of us are children and really should be able to police ourselves....

I disagree about our maturity/immaturity.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Yes, I know I've been misunderstood...

I have been misunderstood as well, despite me trying my utmost to express myself as clearly as possible. Some people lack the wherewithal to comprehend me (or others) - and I most certainly will not comprehend some or aspects that are foreign to my own nature - and other people (or the same people) simply misunderstand me because they project their own - often inaccurate or contorted - perception of reality on my communications.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresseYet, I know that the way in which I speak, and write, is blunt and to the point.

I can be blunt as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
What I see in others, often appears to be gang mentality and/or, wanting to fit in.

I may perchance join in a pack, but often I try to keep my distance. If it gets very bad, I put the person concerned on Hide.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
So where are your lines?

I dunno. It certainly is not my intent to bully anyone. Nor am I aware of having done so.

What do you all think. How do you perceive me? (Apart from me being crazy?) Do I bully? Do I have a gang mentality?

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:25:55 PM   
Aneirin


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I don't see any difference between posting on the internet and real life, as those avatars and letters that appear on the screen in front of you, come from a person, so I try to be what I believe I am like off line in real life, I like to think there is no difference, and in reality, there isn't. So, I try not to be nasty, but when I am, it is because someone has pushed me too far and although the reply feels good at the time, later I regret it and worry, because I do not like being nasty to others.

Recently on line I have had cause to be not nice to a poster, but although I believe my reply was justified given the slander I had received, I fretted about it all day, annoyed with myself for having my buttons pushed and annoyed that I had to respond in anger and because of it I resisted going online that evening, which for me was a change, but I felt disgusted with myself for my actions, no matter how justified they may have been.

My past was one of bullying, I was bullied all through school, my work and marriage, I know what it can do to people, so I try not to bully others.




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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:25:57 PM   
NocturnalStalker


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I hate everyone and I hate everything.

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:27:59 PM   
Rule


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Ah, then you are consistent.

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 6:55:15 PM   
stellauk


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'Everywhere people stare each and every day
I can see them laugh at me and I hear them say
Hey you've got to hide your love away...'

The Beatles

I think it's best that I start off by prefacing what I'm posting here to say that what I write here is purely expository, it's not a whine, a rant, or an opportunity to bitch. I'm just sharing my own experiences and relating, offering a different perspective.

It's long and it's not the best organized of my postings. I could have written much more but I've tried to keep it as brief as possible.

I'm not in any way Socially Privileged but a Marginalized Person, and sacrificed that long before I started to transition and openly admit that I'm transgendered. I've other social markers which in the eyes of some put me further down a perceived social hierarchy - artist, not HWP, homeless, immigrant to name but a few.

Part of my life has been one of restrictions, constant explanations, fears, trust issues, and I can experience prejudice, discrimination and hostility in almost any aspect of my life. I often avoid making first time contact with cisgendered people face to face, and one of the first lessons I learned when coming out is the difference between the way men are perceived to the way women are generally perceived and that generally the best response is to just suck it up and deal with it.

You get some people who say 'yeah, it's only online, and if you can't handle it best switch off the computer and get out in the real world'. Oh I agree, but the thing is I don't get treated the same way in the real world without having to make some effort and the Internet to me is a necessary tool for making contact with people prior to meeting in real time. Generally it's the only place where I can find myself on a level playing field.

But this isn't just about me. There's many other people who are in the same or a similar situation, and they're not necessarily transgendered. Some are disabled, some are mentally ill, some are homosexual, some are survivors of domestic violence, abuse, office bullying. People can be stigmatized for a vast multitude of different reasons, and many of these reasons may not be visible or apparent at first glance. The stigma might have been because of something in the past, and all it takes is a simple sentence, or even a phrase to trigger flashbacks, bad memories, reinforce negative opinions which affect someone's ability to perceive themselves realistically.

Also often it's other people who are generally perceived to be socially advantaged, and this includes white cisgendered cissexual middle class males who can be stigmatized. What's more people can stigmatize themselves internally for so many different reasons you can write a book about it. Then there are other people who perhaps aren't stigmatized themselves but they are close to someone who is stigmatized for some reason and it doesn't matter, the words are still painfui, they still hurt.

There's no such thing as a typical internet bully, and there's also no such thing as a typical victim of internet bullying.

I experience attacks every so often, both online and offline. Maybe I'm lucky as I rarely get stalked, probably I'm not attractive enough. Usually it comes in the form of random attacks, and I am every so grateful to Wikipedia for deleting the entry someone once wrote about me. They wrote that I was transgendered, and that page was subject to hundreds of attacks every week. Sometimes I am subjected to sustained harrassment, and the problem was much worse when I was looking for a job. In the end I gave up and decided to become self-employed.

The thing is, it doesn't matter whether it's online or offline, words such as 'I think it should be legal to murder people such as you and I would love to do it' mean the exact same whether they are written in an e-mail (where I received it), received on a text message (I have received similar threats) or spoken to your face (nobody has ever found the courage yet). It still comes from a real person, it still carries the same emotion, feeling, intent.

You can dress it up as much as you like as bluntness, directness, honesty, frankness, but there's such a thing as tact and consideration of your audience and this is part and parcel of what effective communication is really all about.

Communication isn't just about expression, it's also about the effect on the other person. There's also such a thing as delivery, and I've spent countless hours over the years in rehearsal studios watching actors preparing roles agonizing over how best to deliver spoken dialogue and how different ways of saying things determines how other people perceive their character and role.

There's also such things as projection, the non verbal communication, the emotion, intent and feeling which goes into words. Some people think it doesn't matter online because there's no face to face contact and you don't get to see facial expressions, gestures and body language. But it does matter and it can be just as easily identified from the context of what is expressed. Actors do this consistently being able to develop entire characters and roles from written dialogue and stage directions. Trust me, people don't need to meet you or even see you to be able to determine who you are from what you write and express online.

And quite often it has the same effect as if you've said it to their face.

This used to seriously affect me. I would suffer a complete loss of self-esteem, self-confidence, I would withdraw, avoid contact with people and this is how I got into binge eating. I would keep myself locked away, isolated, not going out for days, not eating, and then when I was starving and weak I would go out buy a couple of bags of food and just eat. There are times when I have thought about suicide, times when I just wanted to die, go to sleep and not wake up.

My own response made it worse. I've gone through periods of being alone, of needing support and help and not finding it, and then other times when I have reached out after such an attack and experienced a further attack or abuse. I learned pretty quickly to cope on my own, do stuff on my own and still when I have serious problems I won't reach out, but will isolate myself, shut myself off and somehow get by on my own.

There is one difference between online communication and face to face communication. Face to face you get the immediate effect, see the response and see how the person copes with what you express. You get the opportunity to apologize, but most of all you get to be able to explain 'I'm sorry, I wasn't thinking' or 'I'm sorry, I'm having a bad day. Take that back.'

You don't get this online. Your words stand, and in writing they stand for much longer than if they were spoken. Furthermore it's not possible to write without some attempt at thinking. Therefore it's generally taken that written words have been considered.

Also online you never get a true picture of someone else's reality. You're not there in their living room, office, bedroom, or wherever they use a computer. You don't know what is happening in their day, you don't get to see the three flying ducks above the mantelpiece, what brand of coffee they keep by the kettle in the kitchen, or any of the other little signs that go together to make up a life. You can only go on what they say and express.

It's like when people say 'if you want to get to know me read my posts on the message board'. Well yes, it's good if you enjoy making people play detective but personally I find the best way of getting to know someone is through direct communication, and I certainly wouldn't put too much stock in what people post here. People come here and post for different reasons, some are bored, some are lonely, some are just out to kill time, and some are genuinely troubled and emotionally upset, especially when they're posting about their own problems.

Some people hide behind masks, not necessarily because they are being dishonest, but because they are shy, they are socially awkward, they have self-esteem issues. Not everybody is extroverted, not everybody is that good at expressing themselves through writing, and not everybody who looks attractive thinks of themselves as attractive.

Some people read things wrong or have difficulties understanding what is written. I recently advertised online for a black actor and one of the first responses was 'I'm a white actor but...' Generally speaking other people perceive you differently to the way you perceive yourself. This is the biggest issue in itself when it comes to such matters as internet bullying, discrimination and dealing with people's prejudices. You might think you're not being a bully, but you might be perceived as one if the other person misinterprets what you express. It cuts both ways, I've come across cases of discrimination which aren't cases of discrimination but someone expressing a personal preference.

From my perspective I would say that most of the discrimination I experience is either unintentional or the other person didn't stop to think before saying something. Only in the minority cases is the discrimination a premeditated attack and it's usually someone who is insecure about their own gender identity or sexual orientation or a closet transgendered individual who hasn't got the guts to face up to their issues and be themselves. Some of it is Horizontal Hostility from someone else who is marginalized.

Furthermore that Social Advantage which is so often perceived is an illusion. It doesn't exist. Everyone is an individual human being, and generally everyone is surrounded by people who love them, people who like them, people who don't, and people who just don't figure.

I'm grateful to these internet bullies even for what they have taught me, how they have developed my character even further and how they have influenced and changed the way I communicate with people.

My experiences have taught me various things. The first is that people who make personal attacks are generally arguing from a position of weakness and that people who think it's funny to ridicule someone over their appearance or identity generally has a mental age of 13. It's also taught me to try to be a bit more compassionate when dealing with people, to express negative opinions and anger through humour, and that tact is an essential part of being direct and critical.

I also don't waste time trying to find fault or apportion blame, but instead to seek solutions to problems. In terms of my own personal issue I try and do what I can to minimize it as an issue and accept things for what they are.

The thing is I can't prevent any of the prejudice or discrimination against me, the only thing I can do is decide whether to let it make me a victim or whether i can use it as an opportunity to become a survivor.

I've chosen the latter route and have decided to turn the table on the internet bullies who now have no other effect on my life but to share their own insecurities and fears and weaknesses with me. It doesn't change who I am nor does it really affect what I'm doing in my life.

If you look at it from another perspective I'm the one with the advantage. I guess compared with others my life is relatively idiot free because the idiots tend to reveal to me that they are idiots on first contact. To me being an idiot is like being a victim, it's a matter of choice.

My response to my experiences is to continue being a dedicated campaigner for civil rights and social justice developed alongside my artistic work. At the moment in time much of my work is advocacy and lobbying. I work alongside and in cooperation with other campaigners and organizations but have my own individual strategy.

Some of these changes have taken place since I've been away. While I am still supportive of LGBT issues I no longer actively campaign on LGBT issues but instead have switched my focus to the deeper issue of gender equality, marriage equality, poverty and human rights issues. I have retired from public life and brought everything - my artistic work, social activism and civil rights activism - into one new non-profit organization and rather than seeking publicity and campaigning I have adopted a 'seen to be doing' approach and developing an organization of different people working to promote culture.

I've joined a political party and am gathering political support for my work and hopefully next week will receive the branch nomination for the election of a new role of Equalities Officer on the constituency executive committee which is tied in with the new Equalities Act. The elections are in late May and I've already started working on my campaign. This doesn't mean I have political ambitions, but am seeking cross party support for cross-cultural projects which promote diversity and social unity.

As I stated at the start this isn't a rant, a whine, because I'm no longer occupying a position of struggle, but have largely overcome such issues and am now in a position of power.

I'm writing this because there are people who 'lurk' on these message boards who maybe don't have the confidence or courage to post but who come and read what other people post. Some of these people may themselves have experienced internet bullying, harrassment, stalking, as have I'm sure some of the regular posters to these boards.

It's important to remember when it comes to internet bullies, stalkers and other dysfunctionals who plague these sites that it's not about you, it's about them in fact it's all about them. The best response is no response because if you do respond you're just feeding their issues. Try to avoid the mistakes I made in the past and reach out to people, never be afraid to share what you are going through or reach out for some much needed external validation.

These people are generally insecure, afraid, hurting and bitter. They're so desperate for attention that they will accept negative attention. If you are attacked report it, keep records, reach out to people, and do not feed them attention.

I'm not sure elsewhere but in the UK there isn't an organization specifically dedicated to bullying but this issue is being addressed with the coming of the Equalities Act and the new Human Rights Act and I know first hand that bullying, harrassment and discrimination is a major concern of all the major political parties in the UK including the Government.

If you feel you are being bullied or harrassed online either here or elsewhere and you want help or support please feel free to message me. Internet bullying is part of social stigma and one of the key roles of my work is effectively tackling social stigma and social exclusion. As it happens I'm working on a proposal for the Government who have identified the promotion of diversity as an objective for the proposal.

Any messages on this subject will be of course strictly confidential.



'Gather round all you clowns
Let me hear you say
Hey, you've got to hide your love away..'

The Beatles

< Message edited by stellauk -- 3/10/2011 6:56:45 PM >


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 7:00:03 PM   
Missokyst


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I don't participate in bullying and am more likely to take up the cause of the underdog.

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 7:07:06 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
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Now that is interesting, because I also tend to do that, and quite often I come in for a lot of stick for not following the accepted line, I tend to fight  for the downtrodden and those without a voice.

I wonder if this is because I have been the underdog, I know that place, and now stronger, I will fight for the underdog.


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/10/2011 7:25:27 PM   
gungadin09


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i've had mixed feelings about this topic ever since i started posting. i think other posters' responses are often blunter and less gentle (or "coddling", if you wish) than mine. i've come to accept that in the forums, that's just the way things roll. i have no problem with honesty. i absolutely don't, no matter how it is expressed. i'm happy to give a person credit for the fact that they express themselves differently than i do. i may not like it, but i don't really have a problem when people aren't "gentle". i think that i know the difference between blunt truth and bullying/sadistic snark, and that i give people credit for their intent.

i do think there is a kind of "herd mentality" or pressure to conform here that sometimes crosses the line into bullying. It doesn't happen all the time, it doesn't happen nearly as often as some people claim, but it happens. And while i'm happy to make allowances for someone's blunt honesty, i'm much less inclined to overlook it when i think a person's just taking cheap shots.

i KNOW that it's the internet. i KNOW that we're all grownups and should be able to handle such things maturely. But i confess that i don't like snarkiness that seems to have no other point than to be snarky. And i have a tendency to jump in to someone's defense at that point. If i'm the one that's being snarked at, i usually just ignore it.

i do feel compelled to monitor my words. i think i usually manage to be tactful as well as honest. i go by the rule of never posting anything that i wouldn't say directly to someone's face. If i think a person is less able (for whatever reason) to defend themselves, i adjust my response accordingly. i've definitely felt remorse over things i've posted, when i felt that they affected the other person more strongly than i meant them to.

Looking at it the other way round, i try to take others' comments with a grain of salt. i make a conscious effort to look at their remarks rationally, rather than just reacting emotionally. i give posters credit for being fair and honest, even when i think their delivery is abrasive. i believe the overwhelming majority of comments on collarme are fair, if not always kind. Peoples different insights and perspectives are enormously interesting. i like it here, most of the time.

In summary: i think posters are welcome to be as snarky or as blunt as they like, as long as they're also being honest and fair.

pam




< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 3/10/2011 7:47:23 PM >

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/11/2011 8:45:31 AM   
Missokyst


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As a minority I was always the underdog. I fought for my place in line and helped up others after me. I think it drives my personality.

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pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding ~Gibran, Kahlil

“The truth is, everyone is going to hurt you. You just got to find the ones worth suffering for.”
― Bob Marley


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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/11/2011 11:00:58 AM   
Arpig


Posts: 9930
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I don't think its being a minority itself that matters...I was a minority all my youth (grew up all over Asia), but I was a privileged minority...and that, I believe, makes all the difference.

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RE: Internet bullying. - 3/11/2011 1:36:46 PM   
Marc2b


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Some people bully because they are simply assholes who get a self flattering ego stoke from it… there is no easier way of making yourself feel superior than by putting someone else down.

Sometimes what appears to be bullying really isn’t but is misinterpretation instead.

I know this because I am highly intelligent and the rest of you are dumber than stumps by comparison.

I’m joking, of course.

Or am I?

Without the all important tone of voice and body language, what appears to be a joke to one person may be taken as a serious insult by another. Indeed, just about any statement, whether its' intent is humorous or factual can be misinterpeted. The problem is that we fill in the gaps with our own speculations and conclusions based upon own experiences and biases. This can result in a false positive view of the person but more often it seems to result in false negative views. The process usually goes something like this: Oh look, this poster believes X. If they believe X they probably believe Y and if they believe Y then they certainly believe Z and anyone who believes Z is an asshole.

In short, all too often, I believe, that people arguing on a message board are not really arguing with each other but with fictionalized versions of each other that they have created in their heads. I know this from personal experience. Based upon some of the responses I have received here on CM I am a right wing, leftist, racist, bleeding heart, America hating, flag waving, commie, nazi, douchebag.

I have come to believe that the key to overcoming this (although I admit it is not always easy to put it into practice) is humility. By humility I do not mean being humble or not standing up for yourself (fuck no). I mean an awareness, and acknowledgement, of the limits of our knowledge. It firm belief of mine that if you only know a person from some words on a message board, then you only know a tiny piece of that person… which means you don’t really know them at all.

Our first reaction to a post is more often emotional than intellectual and so we need to develop the habit of stepping back and asking our self: “What do they really mean by that?”

ETA: Oh, by the way, I really was joking about everyone here being dumber than stumps... In my estimation, only about a fifth of you are dumber than stumps.

< Message edited by Marc2b -- 3/11/2011 1:40:14 PM >


_____________________________

Do you know what the most awesome thing about being an Atheist is? You're not required to hate anybody!

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Internet bullying. - 3/11/2011 2:06:45 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
Status: offline
Yes, I 'give a shit'.

Where I was brought up you were dragged up taking the mick - sink or swim - so it's still with me and now and again I'll pull someone's leg on a mesage board. But, any hint of someone feeling like they're getting a hard time and I'll leave it there - no wish to see anyone uncomfortable. Problem is with where I come from, you grow up around people who give it out, so you assume everyone can take it, but you Yanks are sensitive to the point of a breakdown!

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to LaTigresse)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Internet bullying. - 3/11/2011 2:21:20 PM   
RapierFugue


Posts: 4740
Joined: 3/16/2006
From: London, England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: stellauk

Internet bullying is part of social stigma and one of the key roles of my work is effectively tackling social stigma and social exclusion. As it happens I'm working on a proposal for the Government who have identified the promotion of diversity as an objective for the proposal.


Or, alternatively, and at a far lower cost to the humble taxpayer ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y

;)

(in reply to stellauk)
Profile   Post #: 40
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