Collarspace Discussion Forums


Home  Login  Search 

RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective?


View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
 
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? Page: <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/22/2011 11:22:36 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		The rapid change in the course of events in Libya seem to add up to a compelling case that the NFZ was initiated just in time to be effective. It seems safe to say the thousands of lives have been saved, and the course of the Libyan revolution changed for the better.

Multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, they can be unwieldy and slow to react to events but they are certainly effective when done properly. The muted level of criticism from countries who can usually be relied upon to criticise Western policy illustrates how effective multi-lateralism can be in disarming critics.

Has everyone learnt the lesson? Am I being overly optimistic in expecting those who criticised multi-lateral approaches on these boards to accept that their criticisms were unwarranted and to recant? I fear so .... but would love to be wrong.

_____________________________



(in reply to Portprober21225)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 1:14:52 PM   
jlf1961


Posts: 14840
Joined: 6/10/2008
From: Somewhere Texas
Status: offline 		I always thought a "no-fly zone" was to deny a country's air forces the ability to conduct air operations.

Since when is it part of the operation to conduct operations against ground forces?

_____________________________

Boy, it sure would be nice if we had some grenades, don't you think?

You cannot control who comes into your life, but you can control which airlock you throw them out of.

Paranoid Paramilitary Gun Loving Conspiracy Theorist AND EQUAL OPPORTUNI

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 1:20:25 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I always thought a "no-fly zone" was to deny a country's air forces the ability to conduct air operations.

Since when is it part of the operation to conduct operations against ground forces?


As I said earlier, the UN mandate wasnt for a no fly zone, but to protect civillians. One question that might crop up is what if the rebels gain power and start killing civillians on the other side.

(in reply to jlf1961)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 2:48:24 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: jlf1961

I always thought a "no-fly zone" was to deny a country's air forces the ability to conduct air operations.

Since when is it part of the operation to conduct operations against ground forces?


As I said earlier, the UN mandate wasnt for a no fly zone, but to protect civillians. One question that might crop up is what if the rebels gain power and start killing civillians on the other side.


Politesub you have to stop trying to confuse people with your libby babble ...Everyone knows who the bad guys are...sheeesh …just watch Fox.

Butch


_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 8:22:13 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The rapid change in the course of events in Libya seem to add up to a compelling case that the NFZ was initiated just in time to be effective. It seems safe to say the thousands of lives have been saved, and the course of the Libyan revolution changed for the better.

Multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, they can be unwieldy and slow to react to events but they are certainly effective when done properly. The muted level of criticism from countries who can usually be relied upon to criticise Western policy illustrates how effective multi-lateralism can be in disarming critics.

Has everyone learnt the lesson? Am I being overly optimistic in expecting those who criticised multi-lateral approaches on these boards to accept that their criticisms were unwarranted and to recant? I fear so .... but would love to be wrong.


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.

Don't expect the critics to have learnt their "lessons", especially on these boards.

The situation in Libya remains extremely perilous and unstable, I still don't see how this
will end favorable without some support on the ground.
Gadhaffi troops are currently attacking a hospital in Misrata, and those in the hospital are paralyzed by fear.
Gadhaffi troops attack Misrata hospital

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.


< Message edited by Marini -- 3/23/2011 8:34:39 PM >

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 8:29:50 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.



Yeah, they are much quicker to fall apart...as this one threatens to do.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 8:36:33 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.



Yeah, they are much quicker to fall apart...as this one threatens to do.


It may indeed "fall apart" without ground support, I hope you don't think that this is a good thing.

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 8:44:34 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.



So you want someone else to send in ground troops, just not us?

Isn't that more or less bait and switch?

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 8:49:56 PM   
Marini


Posts: 3629
Joined: 2/14/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.



So you want someone else to send in ground troops, just not us?

Isn't that more or less bait and switch?



If the coalition decided to intervene with the no-fly zone, than the coalition might have to intervene with ground support.
That would involve sending in troops from everyone in the coalition.

By the way, I am not the President of the US and this was not my call.
IF we were going to get involved as a "coalition" I think we should have done it a few weeks ago, which is why I titled this thread, "Is it too late for a no-fly zone to be effective?"

_____________________________

As always, To EACH their Own.
"And as we let our own light shine, we unconsciously give other people permission to do the same. "
Nelson Mandela
Life-long Democrat, not happy at all with Democratic Party.
NOT a Republican/Moderate and free agent

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 8:58:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini


Great post! I agree that multi-lateral coalitions can't be built overnight, and they seem to be very slow to react.



Yeah, they are much quicker to fall apart...as this one threatens to do.


It may indeed "fall apart" without ground support, I hope you don't think that this is a good thing.


Good or bad isnt the point when it was inevitable to begin with.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 9:49:18 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		OK, I'm gonna weigh in with something wierd.

The No Fly Zone is to protect civillians.

That makes anything threatening civilians fair game.

Here's the kicker.

A "civilian" is anyone not sworn into the military.

That means that (by a wierd definition) ALL the rebels are civilians and any time quadaffi's troops attack 'civilians', they are fair game.


Gettin convoluted eh?

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 9:51:45 PM   
Hillwilliam


Posts: 19394
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

I am not saying WE should send in ground troops, I am saying that ground support is needed.



So you want someone else to send in ground troops, just not us?

Isn't that more or less bait and switch?


If it comes to that, I'll paraphrase a bad sci fi movie.

We do the flyin', they do the dyin'

(in reply to rulemylife)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/23/2011 10:02:25 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline 		"protecting civilians" is COA doublespeak. There is no way to protect civilians without regime change. He just is more concerned about his politcal ass to be a leader.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Hillwilliam)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 1:42:40 AM   
popeye1250


Posts: 18104
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: New Hampshire
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

quote:

Newt Gingrich Says President Obama is "Spectator in Chief"


Newt Gingrich has taken time away from mulling his presidential run to take shots at President Obama. Gingrich fired at Obama, calling him a "spectator in chief" while accusing him of being passive in the face of crises in Japan and Libya.

Gingrich, considering a run for the presidency in 2012, joined other Republicans in criticizing the president, accusing him of sitting back too much in his response to major crisis situations, The Hill reported Wednesday.

"Well, I think what is increasingly clear is that we have a spectator in chief instead of a commander in chief," Gingrich said on Fox News.

"It is maybe the most passive and out-of-touch presidency in modern American history," he said, accusing the president of "avoiding his job right now."


http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_7162.shtml




Michael Savage calls Obama, "The Accidental President."

_____________________________

"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

(in reply to Sanity)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 4:12:36 AM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"protecting civilians" is COA doublespeak. There is no way to protect civilians without regime change. He just is more concerned about his politcal ass to be a leader.


Do I have to point out everything to you. Protecting civillians is the UN Mandate, not as you have implied Obamas own words.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 4:18:39 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline 		"America, in the assembly of nations, since her admission among them, has invariably, though often fruitlessly, held forth to them the hand of honest friendship, of equal freedom, of generous reciprocity. She has uniformly spoken among them, though often to heedless and often to disdainful ears, the language of equal liberty, of equal justice, and of equal rights. She has, in the lapse of nearly half a century, without a single exception, respected the independence of other nations while asserting and maintaining her own. She has abstained from interference in the concerns of others, even when conflict has been for principles to which she clings, as to the last vital drop that visits the heart. She has seen that probably for centuries to come, all the contests of that Aceldama the European world, will be contests of inveterate power, and emerging right.

Wherever the standard of freedom and Independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad, in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. "

John Quincy Adams 1821



_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 5:19:54 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Michael Savage calls Obama, "The Accidental President."


Has he ever supported anything the President has ever done?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to popeye1250)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 3:37:11 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Don't expect the critics to have learnt their "lessons", especially on these boards.



Smart call Marini. Tho it's kinda amusing to see the criticism instantly morph from "You can't put multi-lateral forces together" to "Multi-lateral forces fall apart" ......

Is this the CM version of that saying: You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink?

_____________________________



(in reply to Marini)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 3:49:26 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

"protecting civilians" is COA doublespeak. There is no way to protect civilians without regime change. He just is more concerned about his politcal ass to be a leader.


Do I have to point out everything to you. Protecting civillians is the UN Mandate, not as you have implied Obamas own words.


And the UN wouldnt cover for Obama (and the entire coalition really) at Rice' behest? Youre far too naive for this world.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? - 3/24/2011 3:51:56 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marini

Don't expect the critics to have learnt their "lessons", especially on these boards.



Smart call Marini. Tho it's kinda amusing to see the criticism instantly morph from "You can't put multi-lateral forces together" to "Multi-lateral forces fall apart" ......

Is this the CM version of that saying: You can take a horse to water, but you can't make it drink?


If you are referring to my post in another thread, as I recall it was that multi-lateral TALKS have never worked. They still haven't. I have never said anything about multi-lateral forces.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tweakabelle)
Profile   Post #: 200
Page:   <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>
All Forums >> [Community Discussions] >> Dungeon of Political and Religious Discussion >> RE: Is it too late for No-fly zone to be effective? Page: <<   < prev  8 9 [10] 11 12   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts




Collarchat.com © 2025
Terms of Service Privacy Policy Spam Policy

0.094