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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:34:55 AM

Sanity

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I think weve wandered into a different topic at this point but regarding your derail, bureaucrats would decide on the exact language, would they not? Isnt your law about giving bureaucrats ever increasing power over doctor - patient relationships?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The law wasnt to tell Drs to talk to their patients. It was to reimburse them under a different charge.

Edited to add....

Under Section 1233, a doctor would be paid for having an "advance care planning consultation" with a patient. The consultation wouldn't be mandatory, at least for now. But if the doctor wants to get paid for it, the consultation's contents are very specifically prescribed. For example, each consultation "shall include" an explanation of legal documents such as living wills and durable powers of attorney, and information about the "continuum of end-of-life services." Patients need not be ill but, because they are over a certain age, their doctors will suggest that it's time to talk about death.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2009/09/death_talk_for_seniors.html

And that is definitely not a "liberal" site.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:37:20 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

While I do not agree with the Government sending folks out to peoples home at age 65 or any age to do this, as was proposed in the original HC bill.

Interesting. This is the first time I have heard about a door-to-door session.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:41:35 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Once they realized it though, finding reverse gear became the top priority.

More fun than a pinata full of superballs!

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Post #: 203

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:42:39 AM

Sanity

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Thank you, MBMN, DNR education is a perfectly reasonable goal, and peoples wishes should be respected, I can understand that. But that isnt what the thread is about, or what Hohs implication was, or at least, Hoh wasnt clear at all while writing out the post in question.

quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot
The majority of people in this country < USA > do not have Advanced Directives/ HCP or POA's. They are widely ignorant of anything to do with it. Yes, I am making a sweeping statement from personal experience.

There is a lack of accurate communication with families and patients as to what a DNR is. Most MDs I have heard address it have a conversation something like this:

If your heart stops, do you want us to push on your chest and give you mouth to mouth to get your heart started.

Well now.. that sounds quite lovely doesn't it. No biggie. A couple of compressions a quick blow or two into your mouth and Viola ! you're right back in the saddle. Most decline the DNR when it is explained like that.

Here's how I explain it :
If I come into your room and find you dead, that you have passed away and your not breathing and your heart has stopped beating, Do you want us to push on your chest and do mouth to mouth, put a tube down your throat and put you on a machine that will breate for you, instead of you breating yourself ? Or do you want us to treat any problems that arise like infection with an anti biotic, if you choke we will do the Heimlich, if you need oxygen we can give you oxygen. etc.

My success rate in getting people to agree to be a DNR is pretty high. I have worked in end of life for 25 years, so it is a ver, very common conversation I have with people. Most people say Ohh if I am already dead, don't do anything, but the other stuff is OK.

Maybe in some people's mind I am one of the death panelists, but in my mind it's accurately converying what actually is going to happen to them should they die. And any decision regarding your health should be informed consent, not sugar coated consent with inaccurate information

While I do not agree with the Government sending folks out to peoples home at age 65 or any age to do this, as was proposed in the original HC bill. I do believe that there needs to something in place to educate people. Not neccesarlily governmet controlled.

mbmbn

PS: I gave you a brief overview of my chats with patients, I make it very personalized and to the patients level of understanding. And it's not a quick 2 minute conversation. They generally ask questions and we have a real discussion. I know a handfull of MDs who do the same, not many.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:43:41 AM

Sanity

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We could call them Government's Witnesses.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

While I do not agree with the Government sending folks out to peoples home at age 65 or any age to do this, as was proposed in the original HC bill.

Interesting. This is the first time I have heard about a door-to-door session.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:44:31 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

I think weve wandered into a different topic at this point but regarding your derail, bureaucrats would decide on the exact language, would they not? Isnt your law about giving bureaucrats ever increasing power over doctor - patient relationships?

Addressing the "derail"

quote:

Physicians and critical care nurses can talk with their patients today... you dont need new laws allowing for that. How long does a physician need to explain a situation?

That wasnt a derail, Sanity. It was a direct answer to your question along with an explanation of how your post was wrong.

Im being nice. I would appreciate the same.

Addressing the rest...

quote:

bureaucrats would decide on the exact language, would they not?

The language? Hardly. All that was proposed was the payment for the time. The "language" is already set up and used quite effectively.

quote:

Isnt your law about giving bureaucrats ever increasing power over doctor - patient relationships?

Ensuring payment to a physician is increasing the power over that relationship?

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:47:16 AM

tazzygirl

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Guess its ok the GOP in Arizona did more to kill those people than the Canadian system ever will.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 10:58:12 AM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

While I do not agree with the Government sending folks out to peoples home at age 65 or any age to do this, as was proposed in the original HC bill.

Interesting. This is the first time I have heard about a door-to-door session.

LOL, Tazzy !
No, as I am an avid opponent of Government run healthcare, I was actually thinking more on the lines of making ita condition of participation for medical insurance. Not that anyone would have to agree to anything at all, but they would have to go to a class/education seminar or an MD/Nurse etc who was specialized in end of life matters. The one part of Obamacare I actually thought was good was the end of life counciling, of course I would not make it 65, but younger. I just prefer it be done by private insurers with government guidelines for Conditions of participation. Muxh like Hospice and other programs have Federal and State guidelines.

I know.. I know... lol.. I am splitting hairs, but I am a Libertarian and I just can't swallow government mandated anything. well, for the most part, there are always exceptions.

We're closer to agreeing than disagreeing.. It's a mater of difference on the method of delivery.

mbmbn

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:02:36 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Guess its ok the GOP in Arizona did more to kill those people than the Canadian system ever will.

I don't think it is all that productive to pull this down into typical partisanship, Tazzy. I haven't replied to you much on this thread, but I have greatly appreciated your contributions, and your efforts to keep the rhetoric fact-based.

No. It isn't ok. It is what happens when outside entities assume greater control over our healthcare than we have as individuals. Part of it is just our culture and ethics taking some time to catch up with our technological capabilities. The whole situation is an enormous mess, and we are still a long way from resolution, I think.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:05:01 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

LOL, Tazzy !
No, as I am an avid opponent of Government run healthcare, I was actually thinking more on the lines of making ita condition of participation for medical insurance. Not that anyone would have to agree to anything at all, but they would have to go to a class/education seminar or an MD/Nurse etc who was specialized in end of life matters. The one part of Obamacare I actually thought was good was the end of life counciling, of course I would not make it 65, but younger. I just prefer it be done by private insurers with government guidelines for Conditions of participation. Muxh like Hospice and other programs have Federal and State guidelines.

I know.. I know... lol.. I am splitting hairs, but I am a Libertarian and I just can't swallow government mandated anything. well, for the most part, there are always exceptions.

We're closer to agreeing than disagreeing.. It's a mater of difference on the method of delivery.

mbmbn

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:20:46 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Once they realized it though, finding reverse gear became the top priority.

More fun than a pinata full of superballs!

quote:

I don't think it is all that productive to pull this down into typical partisanship, Tazzy.

Isnt that what you are attempting to do?

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:21:36 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Physicians and critical care nurses can talk with their patients today... you dont need new laws allowing for that. How long does a physician need to explain a situation?

For my particular situation it took about 2 hours.

Which I had to pay for out of pocket.

< Message edited by DomKen -- 3/20/2011 11:23:28 AM >

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:22:31 AM

tazzygirl

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quote:

No, as I am an avid opponent of Government run healthcare, I was actually thinking more on the lines of making ita condition of participation for medical insurance. Not that anyone would have to agree to anything at all, but they would have to go to a class/education seminar or an MD/Nurse etc who was specialized in end of life matters.

Many groups already do this.

But, again, they could not individualize the course in the ways a PCP could.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:26:44 AM

EternalHoH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Not neccesarlily governmet controlled.

While I agree with this sentiment in general, let us acknowledge the government IS paying the bill. And this is our problem. We, the people, as we become elderly, enjoy it when the government gives us radially expensive treatment at no cost in our 11th hour, but we don't like the control that comes with the 'gift'. Those who work in the profession like the higher wages (compared to the rest of the private sector) that the federal money gravy train brings to their industry, but they, too, dislike any control coming from the entity that pays the lion's share of the bill. I would most welcome anyone working in the medical profession to go the route of the rest of the private sector, and try to extract their current high wage levels entirely out of private sector insurance companies that are responsible to shareholders first.

The medical and pharma professions are still living in an isolated prosperity bubble, funded largely by government, that the rest of the private sector no longer lives in. Some day, that bubble will pop, too.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:30:59 AM

TheHeretic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Isnt that what you are attempting to do?

Tazzy, life is full of moments when you can laugh, or you can scream. Laughing is better.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:32:38 AM

tazzygirl

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Honestly, I see nothing to laugh about here.

A child is dying. Fact.

A family is in pain. Fact.

Health care has become a joke. Fact.

And we are still arguing over what a death panel is

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 11:41:21 AM

EternalHoH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

but I am a Libertarian and I just can't swallow government mandated anything.

But you certainly have no problem paying the mortgage with a paycheck subsidized by government.

Like a tea-partying cop. Or a McDonnell-Douglas employee.

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 1:36:19 PM

EternalHoH

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Thank you, MBMN, DNR education is a perfectly reasonable goal, and peoples wishes should be respected, I can understand that.

Unless its doctors who are explicitly paid by Medicare (the taxpayer) TO DO a DNR education that are actually doing that DNR education, and rightfully so because its the government (taxpayer) that's also paying 100% of the medical free ride. Then you (and the Palin types) suddenly find a hell of a lot within that process to object to. The patient's wishes quickly fall by the wayside, yielding to your "issues".

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 5:14:56 PM

maybemaybenot

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quote:

ORIGINAL: EternalHoH

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity

Thank you, MBMN, DNR education is a perfectly reasonable goal, and peoples wishes should be respected, I can understand that.

Unless its doctors who are explicitly paid by Medicare (the taxpayer) TO DO a DNR education that are actually doing that DNR education, and rightfully so because its the government (taxpayer) that's also paying 100% of the medical free ride. Then you (and the Palin types) suddenly find a hell of a lot within that process to object to. The patient's wishes quickly fall by the wayside, yielding to your "issues".

Do you even understand how the Medicare system works ? It is NOT free healthcare, nor does it pay 100% of anything.

Medicare B is what you recieve free of charge at age 65.

" It is important for you to understand that Medicare does not cover everything, and it does not pay the total cost for most services or supplies that are covered. You should talk to your doctor to be sure you are getting the service or supply that best meets your health care needs."

http://www.medicare.gov/Coverage/Home.asp#MoreInfo

Medicare A is the Hospital coverage part, which most people have to pay for, there are a few exceptions. And agin it does NOT cover 100% of your hospital expenses

Medicare C is like an HMO/PPO and you pay a rather high premuim to get it.

Medicare D- is the prescription drug coverage. You pay for this coverage also and you also pay a co pay for your medications

So that " free ride " as you put it, isn't really as sweet as you may have been lead to believe and costs our elderly citizens a good amount of money to get good healthcare.

Here's a link to the " Free Ride ". I think you might be surprised at how much it doesn't cover. Even for preventative screenings like mamograms, colonoscopies, flu vaccines, EKG's etc.

http://www.medicare.gov/default.aspx

mbmbn

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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 5:37:17 PM

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