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RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:52:45 PM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

A Trach doesnt necessarily require a machine, A breathing tube does.

From what I have read, this child will require mecahanical life support via the trach. < respirator >

What puzzles me, is that after the trach is done the child is said to be going to a skilled nursing facility. Not home. I read this last night, bear with me, I will try and find a link to reference.

Another puzzlement: The child has been in the US, what a week ? and still no trach ? It's a very simple procedure, short and quick. So I am wondering if the hospital bit off more than they could chew and there is some medical complication/reason he can't be trached.

While I happen to strongly oppose the parents decision, I do think the parents have the " right " to say whether to continue treatment or not. I don't want to get on the religious aspect of it, BUT < lol > I have read that the right to lifers say removing the child from life support would be euthanasia and that it would be interferring in Gods will.
Ummmm... the interference with Gods will came when someone decided to put the feeding tube, then the endo tube in and turn the respirator on. I've also read that the parents say removing life support would cause the child to smother to death. No, the child would go into repsiratory arrest and die. I am not sure if similar options are available in Canada, but in many cases, when someone is removed from life support they are given IV medications to put them in a medically induced coma which lets death pass quietly and peacefully. And IMO, far more humane than putting this poor little soul thru what these parents are doing.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 141

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 6:54:12 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing.

Not even the part where the doctors have decided it is best to pull the plug, and the family has to go to court to stop it, Panda? What the doctors and experts of the death panel have decided it that there is no point in keeping the baby alive.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 142

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 7:51:11 PM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing.

Not even the part where the doctors have decided it is best to pull the plug, and the family has to go to court to stop it, Panda? What the doctors and experts of the death panel have decided it that there is no point in keeping the baby alive.

The exact same thing has happened in Texas.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 143

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:04:57 PM

outhere69

Posts: 1302
Joined: 1/25/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity
Thats the socialist way, Rich. Government is god, government is nanny.

Or big brother, take your pick.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

That seems to be the Canadian way, Panda. I don't see any of them showing up to clarify.

WIthout the socialist hc the child wouldnt have survived to its first birthday, the parents cannot afford this
there would have been no right to life group, it would just be another lousy american statistic
stop the dreck its not helping

Probably survived, but left parents bankrupt.

(in reply to Lucylastic)

Post #: 144

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:09:47 PM

outhere69

Posts: 1302
Joined: 1/25/2011
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

It's no different here at all. If the doctors conclude that a procedure is not medically advisable, they will generally not perform it, no matter how much the family pressures them. If they do bend under the family's pleadings, the insurance company will usually slam the door and refuse to authorize it. There is nothing - nothing - about this situation that is unique to Canada or government-run health care. Nothing.

Not even the part where the doctors have decided it is best to pull the plug, and the family has to go to court to stop it, Panda? What the doctors and experts of the death panel have decided it that there is no point in keeping the baby alive.

The exact same thing has happened in Texas.

Yeah, we've said it a few times, but to no avail.

MBMBN said it right, and I can verify it - sedatives and/or painkillers are given to someone taken off life support.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 145

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:24:56 PM

dcnovice

Posts: 37282
Joined: 8/2/2006
Status: offline

FR

I posted this story on FB, and a wise friend posted a thoughtful reply.

quote:

This is a fascinating case. As a health care policy geek, I will admit that I detest when a society spends money on expensive and unproductive care, and yet I fully get that the definition of "unproductive" is very different to the patient's family than it is to society at large or to those paying the bill. This case also underscores the challenge we face in the US with Medicare (and to some extent, Medicaid). We can't afford - or more aptly, won't agree to tax ourselves at rate that would allow us to afford - providing high cost rescue care that doesn't create a long lasting positive life experience for the patient. We can all look at the Canadian system and scream, "see what happens when you have a death panel" but the very same folks that advocate for a patient-centered system don't want to deal with the crushing financial impact on the tax payer.

_____________________________

No matter how cynical you become,
it's never enough to keep up.

JANE WAGNER, THE SEARCH FOR SIGNS OF
INTELLIGENT LIFE IN THE UNIVERSE

(in reply to outhere69)

Post #: 146

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:41:33 PM

willbeurdaddy

Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
As it stands, its a fatal disease, one that took the life of his older sister. There is no point, except to assuage the parents guilt at the time of death that all was "done", to doing this.

The sister had the tracheotomy so she could go home to die. The parents knew exactly what they were doing and it nothing to do with guilt.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 147

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:42:54 PM

rulemylife

Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: NihilusZero

This, for instance, is a great example of an argument that would indeed have some heft in support of the idea that special cases could at least partially be made for family in situation where the degree of grief and emotional torment can be said to potentially be higher than normal.

In what case would the impending death of any family member not cause a great deal of grief and emotional torment?

So, you are proposing a rating system?

The hospitals will work extra hard if the grief level is an eight rather than a five?

Surely you read the rest of my comments and didn't take this snippet out of context as, alone, it reflects nothing close to my actual assessment of this specific case.

Then maybe I misunderstood. My apologies if that is the case, but it did sound to me as if that was what you were saying.

(in reply to NihilusZero)

Post #: 148

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:48:16 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The exact same thing has happened in Texas.

Got some documentation on that claim, Ken? Do keep in mind that someone might actually read the link too, because your credibility is worth less than the kid's chances of seeing his second birthday.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 149

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 8:56:53 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

The sister had the tracheotomy so she could go home to die. The parents knew exactly what they were doing and it nothing to do with guilt.

You sure it wasn't about guilt? I mean, tazzy is sure it is so it must be true.

I thought it could just as easily be about the parents spending the last days with their child in their own home as a family and or for those last memories. Call it what you will. I call it right.

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)

Post #: 150

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 9:06:23 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

Cost is certainly an aspect, DC, but these parents do know what they are getting into. It's reportedly a rare disease. Hell, they probably have a better understanding of this condition's effects and progression than the doctors and board members who made the decision to euthanize.

I'm on the other side of the choice they made. My concern is with who is making the choice. Hospitals and insurance companies don't set the law of the land here (well, writing Obamacare might be an exception). They are subject to bad press, and competition. If the parents can find a way to cover the costs, they are free to vote with their feet, right down the street. That doesn't seem to be the case for this family.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to dcnovice)

Post #: 151

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 9:09:47 PM

ThatDamnedPanda

Posts: 6060
Joined: 1/26/2009
Status: offline

I give up.

_____________________________

Panda, panda, burning bright
In the forest of the night
What immortal hand or eye
Made you all black and white and roly-poly like that?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 152

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 9:28:24 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I give up.

Yeah, it's pointless. I have him on block, for what it's worth. He thinks it's amusing to point fingers and laugh at people with medical problems like degenerative disc disease, osteoarthritis, peripheral neuropathy, and so on. When people reveal their inner selves, one has to decide if one wants anything further to do with them.
Me, I've decided that the scumbag assholes of the world have nothing to say that I want to hear.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 153

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 9:33:47 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

I give up.

Ain't it a bitch when that happens?

I understand what you have said here, Panda, but I am stuck on a niggling detail of the process. I don't like the assumption that the medical establishment is presumed to have the final word, going in to the fight.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to ThatDamnedPanda)

Post #: 154

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 10:05:20 PM

TheHeretic

Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
I have him on block,

I don't miss him one little bit, either. It works out well.

_____________________________

If you lose one sense, your other senses are enhanced.
That's why people with no sense of humor have such an inflated sense of self-importance.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 155

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 10:17:59 PM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

I thought I read that as well, but I didnt have time to find it before work.

While I happen to strongly oppose the parents decision, I do think the parents have the " right " to say whether to continue treatment or not.

Continue, yes. Dictate? No.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to maybemaybenot)

Post #: 156

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/19/2011 10:28:01 PM

Icarys

Posts: 5757
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

I thought I read that as well, but I didnt have time to find it before work.

While I happen to strongly oppose the parents decision, I do think the parents have the " right " to say whether to continue treatment or not.

Continue, yes. Dictate? No.

So if a Doctor tells you that you need to do this or that, you think you have to listen to him?

_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 157

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 6:02:03 AM

DomKen

Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
The exact same thing has happened in Texas.

Got some documentation on that claim, Ken? Do keep in mind that someone might actually read the link too, because your credibility is worth less than the kid's chances of seeing his second birthday.

You claiming I have less than stellat credibility is hilarious. It's a fairly pathetic and completely obvious attempt to poison the well since you know I will prove the point.

Here you go
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3087387.html

Now I anxiously await your apology.

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 158

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 7:20:44 AM

flcouple2009

Posts: 2784
Joined: 1/8/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

Cost is certainly an aspect, DC, but these parents do know what they are getting into. It's reportedly a rare disease. Hell, they probably have a better understanding of this condition's effects and progression than the doctors and board members who made the decision to euthanize.

I'm on the other side of the choice they made. My concern is with who is making the choice. Hospitals and insurance companies don't set the law of the land here (well, writing Obamacare might be an exception). They are subject to bad press, and competition. If the parents can find a way to cover the costs, they are free to vote with their feet, right down the street. That doesn't seem to be the case for this family.

"Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining care, even if a patient's family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun."

Where you wanting to have an actual discussion?

It appears by your choice of title and statements you've made you really only want to take shots at the Canadians and Obamacare.

So how about those "TX Death Panels"?

(in reply to TheHeretic)

Post #: 159

RE: Canadian Death Panel Thwarted - 3/20/2011 7:26:39 AM

maybemaybenot

Posts: 2817
Joined: 9/22/2005
Status: offline

F/U Reply:

I fell asleep last night before posting the link:

"The family said they wanted doctors to perform a tracheotomy that would allow the boy to be taken home and, if the prognosis of doctors is correct, to die in the loving arms of his family, as their daughter, stricken with the same disease, did eight years earlier."

"Interestingly, the St. Louis hospital said it hopes that after a tracheotomy Joseph can be placed in a mechanical ventilator and be taken to an assisted-nursing facility with no mention of Joseph going home "

http://www.lfpress.com/comment/columnists/joe_belanger/2011/03/18/17674041.html
___________________________________________________________________________________________

Tazzy:

I'm very torn on this case, or any like it.
I guess I would have to say, yes: to dictate it as well because I don't see the line between continue and dictate in this case. The current treatment has been to keep him alive on a vent. Currently via and an endo tube. Mechanical ventilation is the " treatment ", so changing the vehicle in which that is done doesn't change the treatment, just how it is delivered.
If, in these parents minds, they had a choice to keep this child alive with all the bells and whistles of artificial life support with an endo tube, I * understand * their desire for a trach. I don't agree nor support that decision.

That answer comes from an unemotional, detached POV. My personal POV is: I think these parents are selfish, and do not have the best interest of the child in mind. It's all about what they want. They are not enhancing the childs life, they are not providing comfort, they are not doing anything but maintaining a shell of a human being in a bed with no independent physical functioning except peeing and pooping. And most likey the child can't do that without a tube or medication. I think they are using any and all outlets < media, Right to Lifers, etc > to find their own emotional comfort and to justify their cruel choice. Like I said, they are only thinking of themselves.
I think this is less about medical ethics, Canadian Healthcare vs US Healthcare, religion, God's will, healthcare, than it is about parents with psychological problems regarding the child's illness compounded with guilt from a preivious child's death from the same disease. And some fools who jumped on this case to promote their own agenda.

mbmbn

_____________________________

Tolerance of evil is suicide.- NYC Firefighter

When tolerance is not reciprocated, tolerance becomes surrender.

(in reply to DomKen)

Post #: 160

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