RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (Full Version)

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porcelaine -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 8:19:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

I'd argue that talking to a woman with the aim of seducing her is hardly nefarious.  It's pretty much what men do most of the time anyway, PUA's just do it with a greater deal of awareness.


i didn't define nefarious in my original comment. But it wasn't a sexual bend that i had in mind. i happen to think the behavior is much more commonplace in 'dominant' men than many have noted. But perhaps i have the good fortune/misfortune of attracting that sort.

quote:

PUA's have transitioned from being men who fake the signals of dominance and high self-worth to becoming the kind of men who naturally display dominance and high self-worth.  There's been a progression and these days, authenticity is fairly highly regarded.  There's the necessity to have a realistic understanding of women without the requisite bitterness that a lot of men seem lug around.


i think the transition mentioned works for some. Particularly those that maintain an open-mind about dominance and its various guises. When you start to distill that philosophy and lean towards certain angles it gets more cumbersome for an actor to play make believe unless he's very adept. And i think there's a lot of burnt out bitter folks on both sides. That's apt to occur if you keep trying and never take a time out. Too many lumps will always leave a dent in the heart.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



StrongSpirit -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 9:17:59 AM)

I agree with Palliata. Pick Up Artists are fooling themselves at best, conning men for worthless instructions at worst.

To those of you that disagree, I frankly think you don't know what the average women finds attractive. Particularly when you use someone you had a relationship with as an example. (Duh, you found him attractive.)

Most people are fairly bad judges of male attractiveness to women. Our culture's ideal of male attractiveness has more to do with what gay men like then women. As a basic rule of thumb, any guy that is over 5'11" is at least a 8 out of 10 as far as women are concerned. (They did a study that showed women would rather date a non-violent convicted felon over 6' tall as opposed to a 5'4" doctor.)

With that in mind, think back about the men you think of as good Pick Up artists, but did not think they were attractive. Were they by chance tall?

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe these pick up artists are really good. But frankly, they don't sound knowledgable to me.
Their advice tends to concentrate on:

1. lines
2. subtle put downs
3. 'confidence'

Lines don't work- women usually have already made up their mind before you open your mouth. Subtle put downs are not so subtle - and only work on submissive women that already are interested in you. Their advice about confidence is worthless: 1. they don't tell you how to actually become confident, 2. they don't good advice about how to pretend to be confident, and 3. Men meet women either on line or in the presence of alcohol Neither situation is conducive to judging how confident men are.


If pick up artists really work, they would become rich because shy men are more than willing enough to spend thousands of dollars to learn how to pick up women. There is no way anyone capable of teaching men to become pick up artists would not be a millionaire - just as there is no way that a real psychic would need to work on a phone line.



Hillwilliam -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 10:21:18 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit


If pick up artists really work, they would become rich because shy men are more than willing enough to spend thousands of dollars to learn how to pick up women. There is no way anyone capable of teaching men to become pick up artists would not be a millionaire - just as there is no way that a real psychic would need to work on a phone line.

Just answering this part. There are TONS of moderate to expensive videos, books, ets that tell men how to become a PUA and I wouldn't be surprised at all of some men have spent hundreds of dollars buying them. Someone is getting rich or at least making a good living.

As for teaching someone else how to become a PUA. Why help the competition? Let em flounder. It's quite entertaining.
The worse others flounder, the better I look.

I'll tell you what one of the most effective 'lines' is. Watch some dude floundering trying to 'pick up' a woman. Smile and nod at her, shake your head and smirk in his direction then go back to what you were doing. DONT approach. There is an excellent chance that she will. When she does, STFU and LISTEN.

No line involved except to say, "Hi, (or good afternoon or good evening) My name's ******"
Most of it is in how you carry yourself, how you smile and how you maintain eye contact. (yes, look at her eyes, not her tits)

By the way, I'm short. [8D]

OK, dudes, that'll be 50 bucks. [sm=biggrin.gif]



Hillwilliam -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 10:22:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit


If pick up artists really work, they would become rich because shy men are more than willing enough to spend thousands of dollars to learn how to pick up women. There is no way anyone capable of teaching men to become pick up artists would not be a millionaire - just as there is no way that a real psychic would need to work on a phone line.

Just answering this part. There are TONS of moderate to expensive videos, books, etc that tell men how to become a PUA and I wouldn't be surprised at all if some men have spent hundreds of dollars buying them. Someone is getting rich or at least making a good living.

As for teaching someone else how to become a PUA. Why help the competition? Let em flounder. It's quite entertaining.
The worse others flounder, the better I (or anyone else) looks.

I'll tell you what one of the most effective 'lines' is. Watch some dude floundering trying to 'pick up' a woman. Smile and nod at her, shake your head and smirk in his direction then go back to what you were doing. DONT approach. There is an excellent chance that she will. When she does, STFU and LISTEN.

No line involved except to say, "Hi, (or good afternoon or good evening) My name's ******"
Most of it is in how you carry yourself, how you smile and how you maintain eye contact. (yes, look at her eyes, not her tits)

By the way, I'm short. [8D]

OK, dudes, that'll be 50 bucks. [sm=biggrin.gif]




porcelaine -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 11:27:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit

To those of you that disagree, I frankly think you don't know what the average women finds attractive. Particularly when you use someone you had a relationship with as an example. (Duh, you found him attractive.)


Everyone is waxing personal. Including those that believe they speak for the masses.

quote:

As a basic rule of thumb, any guy that is over 5'11" is at least a 8 out of 10 as far as women are concerned. (They did a study that showed women would rather date a non-violent convicted felon over 6' tall as opposed to a 5'4" doctor.)


A lot of your posts mention this. Is there a specific issue you have about the supposed preference for tall men?

quote:

With that in mind, think back about the men you think of as good Pick Up artists, but did not think they were attractive. Were they by chance tall?


The last man i conversed with was under six feet and that is my preference. However, what he lacked in height he made up for in other areas. i won't curb a prospect on that issue alone. But if he has a definite complex about his height it's probable i'll take a pass. Especially if he goes on and on about the subject ad nauseam.

quote:

Lines don't work- women usually have already made up their mind before you open your mouth.


In some instances. In others i want to hear the spiel. :)

quote:

Subtle put downs are not so subtle - and only work on submissive women that already are interested in you.


Okay i'll bite. i once had a man tell me that he thought i wrote pretty well. It honestly felt like a pat on the head. i didn't get offended, but actually laughed. However, my response might have been different if i didn't find him engaging. The comment probably wouldn't have gone over quite as smoothly. And for what it's worth i'm not duly impressed by those that compliment me excessively. That's just as irritating.

Namaste,

~porcelaine



LanceHughes -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 2:02:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hillwilliam


quote:

ORIGINAL: StrongSpirit


If pick up artists really work, they would become rich because shy men are more than willing enough to spend thousands of dollars to learn how to pick up women. There is no way anyone capable of teaching men to become pick up artists would not be a millionaire - just as there is no way that a real psychic would need to work on a phone line.

Just answering this part. There are TONS of moderate to expensive videos, books, ets that tell men how to become a PUA and I wouldn't be surprised at all of some men have spent hundreds of dollars buying them. Someone is getting rich or at least making a good living.

As for teaching someone else how to become a PUA. Why help the competition? Let em flounder. It's quite entertaining.
The worse others flounder, the better I look.

I'll tell you what one of the most effective 'lines' is. Watch some dude floundering trying to 'pick up' a woman. Smile and nod at her, shake your head and smirk in his direction then go back to what you were doing. DONT approach. There is an excellent chance that she will. When she does, STFU and LISTEN.

No line involved except to say, "Hi, (or good afternoon or good evening) My name's ******"
Most of it is in how you carry yourself, how you smile and how you maintain eye contact. (yes, look at her eyes, not her tits)

By the way, I'm short. [8D]

OK, dudes, that'll be 50 bucks. [sm=biggrin.gif]

DAMN!  Beat me to it!  I'm 5' 9" bare feet.  Not rich, reasonably attractive - many say handsome.  My three qualities used for NSA in gay Leather bars AND for LTR are: 1) confidence 2) humor 3) listening.

I've been called photogenic and that comes from LOOKING into the camera with a certain glint that I've learned to turn on (when I realize it's in "rest" mode.)

People tell me I should run for office...... I'd be a GREAT 1st termer, and then not get re-elected after the electorate has realized exactly what my style is, namely state my position and then NO compromise. <oops! thread-jack NOT intentional.>



NocturnalStalker -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 3:30:12 PM)

Are those lambskin leather pants?



leadership527 -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/27/2011 3:40:50 PM)

~fast reply~

Well damn. Am I the only one who doesn't think this PUA is some sort of scam? As far as I'm concerned humans behave in predictable patterns. Understanding these patterns and working to maximize them seems perfectly plausible. I see no reason to think that someone who was willing to invest serious effort into learning how to pick up women wouldn't be successful at it. My general observation is that some women respond to "the game" and some do not. You can see that split in this thread and the female responses to it. I think the same is true of men. Some men like to be "played" and others do not. My general observation is that more people fall into the "hunt/stalk" crowd than the "let's just meet" crowd.

Nor do I think that someone utilizing a specific skill set in order to attract females is necessarily bad. I'd need to know whether or not they were intentionally deceiving the target first. But just doing things like feigning disinterest in order to draw a woman in is manipulative but hardly deceptive in any serious way.



crazyml -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 12:31:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: littlewonder

they're very different for me personally. I'm not attracted to pick up artists. I find their attempts lame and desperate.
  What makes you think you could spot one?

This idea that a woman can easily spot a PUA is a conceit.  A good pickup artist knows how to play the game to a level which defies conventional understanding.  No PUA would ever use a pickup line.  That's not how it works.



Good point, well made Awareness, there are very few "artists" when it comes to picking up people of the opposite sex. At the risk of invoking one of the words I hate the most - A true pick-up artist would never advertise the fact, and very few pick-upees would be conscious that they were chatting to one ;-)



crazyml -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 12:35:25 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LanceHughes

Leather bars AND for LTR are: 1) confidence 2) humor 3) listening.



Kerching!

<tips hat to lance>



crazyml -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 12:46:49 AM)

To the OP:

I suppose one of the problems is the term "pick up artist", which implies trickery.. the other problem is that we've all seen the "Puck up lamer" at work - the cheesy lines, the rehearsed banter etc.

I think that many successful Doms will share many of the traits of a really successful PUA (whether they choose to use those traits/skills to pick people up or not).

I think it's all about Charisma. And sure, the impression of power/wealth/confidence etc are all classical traits associated with charisma. But, in my experience, the key to Charisma has always been "Empathy" which as a couple of people have pointed out (particularly the fabulous Lance) is as much about Listening as it is about Talking.

The best PUAs I've seen at work don't give the slightest indication that they're a PUA, they have a conversation, and the pick-up happens (as often as not the person who is being picked up would swear that they were the one doing the picking up).

While height certainly gives taller chaps an advantage in many cases, I'm certain that a 5'7" guy with the right levels of humour, empathy and communication skills could beat a six footer any time.

Not that I'd know, since I would never ever dream of being a PUA.



IronBear -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 1:11:13 AM)

This is getting mildly funny, decades ago in the time of DISCO, we'd see the PUAs all heading to the cocktail bars and discos ultra wide flairs, permed hairdo, suit coat on showing a Travolta like silk shirt open to the belt and displaying several yards of gold plated brass chain and assorted bling as well ass hands festooned with chunky ostentatious rings. Looked like a Latino love fest gathering.. But Jesus those guys had the looks, could dance your tits off and had the smooth moves all designed to make a lady feel like a queen and to fall head over heals into the arms of the local Lothario.. These days things appears to have changed or at least in the cocktail bars and piano bars I occasionally frequent. Gone are the trappings of a more decadent time and on with the business suits and the trappings of a successful broker.. Even glasses are made to add to the successful masculine attractiveness.. Wonder if their techniques are any better or worse that the days of DISCO..



porcelaine -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 7:02:07 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

I think that many successful Doms will share many of the traits of a really successful PUA (whether they choose to use those traits/skills to pick people up or not).


Ah, the voice of reason. :)

Bingo. And i don't believe they're oblivious to that either.

quote:

I think it's all about Charisma. And sure, the impression of power/wealth/confidence etc are all classical traits associated with charisma. But, in my experience, the key to Charisma has always been "Empathy"


The empathy angle works for some women. Others are drawn in by presence. That's my shtick.

quote:

The best PUAs I've seen at work don't give the slightest indication that they're a PUA, they have a conversation, and the pick-up happens (as often as not the person who is being picked up would swear that they were the one doing the picking up).


The subtlety is what makes it really hot. And while you mentioned charisma, i'd like to note that it doesn't mean arrogance, which some men mistakenly present in its place. Those that are truly good at this aren't really the aggressor in the typical sense. They possess an uncanny ability to cast their line and reel them in without their knowledge. Yum. [;)]

Namaste,

~porcelaine



crazyml -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 9:56:10 AM)

Yeah, but I really do need my glasses for seeing, honest.



crazyml -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 9:58:13 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: porcelaine

The empathy angle works for some women. Others are drawn in by presence. That's my shtick.


Perhaps by being empathetic the poifect PUA would be able to tell that you're drawn in by presence ;-)

quote:


The subtlety is what makes it really hot. And while you mentioned charisma, i'd like to note that it doesn't mean arrogance, which some men mistakenly present in its place.


Absolutely



leadership527 -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 11:16:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IronBear
This is getting mildly funny, decades ago in the time of DISCO, we'd see the PUAs all heading to the cocktail bars and discos

This got to the heart of what I'm seeing on this thread. In my mind this is not a "pickup artist". This is a player on the prowl. They are not, by definition, "artists" of anything since they're so klutzy. When I think of a "pickup artist" I'm thinking of someone who is probably intelligent, emotionally aware, and has dedicated years of their life to a scientific study of "reeling in women". At least, that's the image I've gotten from a few shows I've seen on TV recently.

I fully expect such people to be very successful at attracting any women who is into the hunt/chase thing. I'd expect them to fail miserably with the people who don't think of courtship in game terms. My own personal opinion is that the the men and women both who treat it as a game are in the vast majority so I'd expect PUA's to be successful way more often than not.

By the way, PUA's exist on both sides. I think on the female side we call them something like "seductresses" and if we're annoyed with them, "sluts".



Hillwilliam -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 2:12:20 PM)

I thought sluts was a GOOD thing?



porcelaine -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 2:25:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: crazyml

Perhaps by being empathetic the poifect PUA would be able to tell that you're drawn in by presence ;-)


That's the least of his problems. It's the attractive angle that he needs to concern himself with. :)

Namaste,

~porcelaine



sexyred1 -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 3:18:56 PM)

I disagree that Doms and PUA's have a similar skillset.

In fact, I am mildly amused by the term PUA and that anyone would take that seriously.

There are many men who assume to know what women like; such as the person who keeps insisting that all women only want tall men. No matter how many times someone says differently, men will believe what they want as an excuse for failure with the opposite sex.

I think any woman over the age of 18 knows a line when she hears one. No one believes lines; or if they do, it is because they want to believe them over actions.

As with being a Dom or being a vanilla success with women, if it is multiple women you seek and not just a special one, there really are only a few things worth considering, for me at least.

A man will be successful with me if he is open about who is he (and I do not mean guys who run around saying what assholes they are: because I am not interested in someone proud of that fact) and what he wants from a woman and life.

A man who understands finesse and seduction; one who communicates with me.

A man who is aware of the duality of his nature and mine.

A man who is passionate about many things, not just sex.

And finally, a man interests me the most who demonstrates focused interest on ME, not generic interest in just meeting a warm female body.

Oh, and he does not have to be tall, just attractive to me, no one else.



crazyml -> RE: Doms and PUAs - a similar skill-set? (3/28/2011 3:37:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sexyred1


A man will be successful with me if he is open about who is he (and I do not mean guys who run around saying what assholes they are: because I am not interested in someone proud of that fact) and what he wants from a woman and life.

A man who understands finesse and seduction; one who communicates with me.

A man who is aware of the duality of his nature and mine.

A man who is passionate about many things, not just sex.

And finally, a man interests me the most who demonstrates focused interest on ME, not generic interest in just meeting a warm female body.

Oh, and he does not have to be tall, just attractive to me, no one else.


Haven't you just described a PUA? (As opposed to a Pick Up Lamer or a Pick Up Wannabe?)



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