RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (Full Version)

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Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 11:31:13 AM)

So you've got nothing but an inability to grasp the fact that the conversational UK idiom differs from the way they talk in Kentucky, then.
Thought so.

(BTW: if you're going to whine about people having a "smug sense of superiority", I'd suggest that you change your signature.)




FirmhandKY -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 11:32:31 AM)

[sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif][sm=biggrin.gif]




mnottertail -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 11:50:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

So you've got nothing but an inability to grasp the fact that the conversational UK idiom differs from the way they talk in Kentucky, then.
Thought so.

(BTW: if you're going to whine about people having a "smug sense of superiority", I'd suggest that you change your signature.)


He admits he has a devil of a time wrestling false cognates.




Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 11:51:35 AM)

At least he's got rid of that signature. [;)]




NorthernGent -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 11:55:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi Stella

I hadn't mentioned how good it was to see you back. Myself I welcome all comments...Imagine how boring this forum would be without all the different views of this world...How else do we learn what others think? Even if it does piss us off now and then.

Butch


Agreed in the sense that a spread of ideas is healthy, which brings us neatly on to the idea that spreading democracy and Western ideals is, ultimately, self-defeating.




Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 12:00:03 PM)

Quite. Trying to spread communism in Eastern Europe during the last century didn't do that philosophy any favours in the long run, did it?




FirmhandKY -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 12:04:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

At least he's got rid of that signature. [;)]

Fixed it just for you.

Firm




Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 12:05:55 PM)

In which case, you don't have a leg to stand on complaining about perceived smugness or superiority in other posters, do you?




NorthernGent -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 12:13:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PeonForHer


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead
That seems to be what he's throwing a fit about, sadly. No idea why he's got the needle so badly over it being pointed out that the American right's definition of socialist bears no resemblance to anything any socialist elsewhere in the world (or for that matter, American socialists in the '50s) would want anything to do with, but it seems to have upset him.


I've seen signs, many times, of quite different understandings between the UK on that and other matters. American politics does look, *in general*, more right wing that that of the UK. (As I heard a Tory MP say to an American politician on Question Time, 'We don't really have republicans here. The nearest we get is right wing democrats'.) The various kinds of moderate socialism tend to get bunched together with the kinds that are farther left and, as I was told recently, what we'd call the centre or centre-left idea of 'social democracy' seems to be a rarely-heard term in the USA.



The Big Society is a return to traditional conservative values. Social provision through charity, civic duty, individual initiative, pro business. Now, it's fair to say that our conservative party has always espoused these values. The only difference today is that they believe they can pull this one off with public opinion being with them in the wake of a financial mess. A catastrophic war is followed by a period of Liberalism as the people demand concessions, and financial instability is followed by a period of Conservatism.

I'd guess that the one difference you could nail down between British conservatives and US conservatives is the British obsession with free trade which pervades all of the main political parties and has done since Churchill defected to the Liberal Party on such a point.

But, I would agree that the policies of our successive governments do suggest that US politics has been further to the right for a long time. Things are changing here, however, as seen through the shift to the right over the past 35 years (perhaps it's no mere coincidence that as the memory of two bankrupting world wars fades, so does the idea that the organising capacity of government should be celebrated).




Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 12:19:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
The Big Society is a return to traditional conservative values. Social provision through charity, civic duty, individual initiative, pro business. Now, it's fair to say that our conservative party has always espoused these values. The only difference today is that they believe they can pull this one off with public opinion being with them in the wake of a financial mess. A catastrophic war is followed by a period of Liberalism as the people demand concessions, and financial instability is followed by a period of Conservatism.

No argument with the rest, but I'd suggest that charity, civic duty and the other values you cite were abandoned during the Thatcher years, and haven't been seen in UK politics since. "There is no such thing as the big society," remember?

quote:

I'd guess that the one difference you could nail down between British conservatives and US conservatives is the British obsession with free trade which pervades all of the main political parties and has done since Churchill defected to the Liberal Party on such a point.

The really bizarre thing about that is that the original free traders were proto libertarians.

quote:

But, I would agree that the policies of our successive governments do suggest that US politics has been further to the right for a long time. Things are changing here, however, as seen through the shift to the right over the past 35 years (perhaps it's no mere coincidence that as the memory of two bankrupting world wars fades, so does the idea that the organising capacity of government should be celebrated).

That's an interesting connection. Of course, the fact that we've had three or four governments in a row who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery might have something to do with that as well.




kdsub -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:14:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi Stella

I hadn't mentioned how good it was to see you back. Myself I welcome all comments...Imagine how boring this forum would be without all the different views of this world...How else do we learn what others think? Even if it does piss us off now and then.

Butch


Agreed in the sense that a spread of ideas is healthy, which brings us neatly on to the idea that spreading democracy and Western ideals is, ultimately, self-defeating.



You see I believe you spread the ideals of democracy by example... Now you will have to admit the ideals of a free west as an example has spread all over the world and is even now in the minds of the oppressed...and that includes Iran, N. Korea and China. There is a good chance that in the coming years these nations will move toward a more open and democratic society...don't ya think?

All because of the good ol USA

Butch





Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:19:54 PM)

Isn't that his point? That notion's spreading a lot better where there's been no attempt made to impose it on anybody at gunpoint.




kdsub -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:22:06 PM)

Can't I agree with him?

PS..watch that sword... look what happened the last time




mnottertail -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:23:00 PM)

After they burnt down our whitehouse?





Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:24:02 PM)

Mea culpa. I thought you were defending the attempts to impose democracy on people who didn't fancy it.




NorthernGent -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:35:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

Hi Stella

I hadn't mentioned how good it was to see you back. Myself I welcome all comments...Imagine how boring this forum would be without all the different views of this world...How else do we learn what others think? Even if it does piss us off now and then.

Butch


Agreed in the sense that a spread of ideas is healthy, which brings us neatly on to the idea that spreading democracy and Western ideals is, ultimately, self-defeating.



You see I believe you spread the ideals of democracy by example... Now you will have to admit the ideals of a free west as an example has spread all over the world and is even now in the minds of the oppressed...and that includes Iran, N. Korea and China. There is a good chance that in the coming years these nations will move toward a more open and democratic society...don't ya think?

All because of the good ol USA

Butch



Thought you said you like a spread of ideas, Butch? Now you say you like the 'spread' of ideas with which you agree, which ain't quite the same




Edwynn -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:56:16 PM)



"Of course, the fact that we've had three or four governments in a row who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery might have something to do with that as well."




The last sentence above making me wonder about the coalition system existing in most European countries. I get rather tired and disgusted with the two party system in the US, anything not within that framework dismissed out of hand, legitimate and highly pertinent questions or concerns not asked or presented out of either of those camps easily dismissed by the media as politically irrelevant, therefore not a concern at all then, regardless of actual reality or potential consequences. The result of course is a great number of disaffected people who, come election time, have to listen to the incessant mantra re voting. "Now that we've conveyed to you in no uncertain terms that any of your concerns that we didn't anoint as worthy are meaningless to us, do something meaningful and get out and vote! Once the latest twit is elected we'll make sure to have a little box on the news web pages saying 'What do YOU think?' and invite your letters to the editor!" Viva la Democracy!

OTOH, the multi-party coalition system allows at least a few non-scripted questions to actually get into the process, but can certainly get mired down after an election, with functional cooperation seemingly especially hard to achieve sometimes. Worst case, the Weimar Republic comes to mind.

Apropos Germany's latest ...

I'm curious as to how the new coalition regime in Germany is going to play out, myself.

"Wei gehts, Baden-Württemberg ?" : "Gehts Grün!"

The Greens (Die Grünen) won enough votes in Baden-Württemberg to have a coalition with the Social Democrats in majority to the Christian Democrats/Free Democrats, in a traditionally conservative (in their terms) state where the latter has held majority for decades. The state will have a Green Party Governor as part of it, even though the SDP partner had more votes, however that came about. So of course based on what transpires in the US and UK, coalition or otherwise, I wonder if opposition bitterness or lately elected victors' vindictiveness will stifle things as much as in the first two examples. I hope not, but this is new territory for B-W and there are lots of things that are supposedly due to change as a result (a huge rail project), ongoing business of EU member bailouts and level of participation in UN/NATO affairs, etc.



'Twill be interesting, to be sure.







kdsub -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 1:57:09 PM)

My head hurts... i hate riddles...I do like a spread of ideas as long as they are mine...[:D]




Moonhead -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 2:53:10 PM)

I agree that it'll be interesting to see how the hung German parliament plays out, but I doubt that you'll find too many British posters with anything positive to say about coalition governments after the brokeback coalition's first nine months in power. I have the distinct impression that the only reason Cassandra wanted a coalition was to discredit the LibDems. (And fair play to him: he's done a magnificent job of that. I doubt any bugger will ever vote for the two faced fuckers again...)




Edwynn -> RE: Inglorious (Limey) Bastards (3/30/2011 3:44:40 PM)


Thanks for the clarification. In my previous post I unintentionally equated a 3+ party system automatically with a 'coalition' system, though I know better than that.







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