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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/1/2011 2:40:34 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		nah...its just another loophole perfectly legal...and if we close it without lowering taxes I'll bet they move completely out of the country.

Wouldn't it be wiser to look into lowering taxes...maybe even giving it a try for a few years to see what happens? If it does not work raise them back up.

Butch

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/1/2011 2:48:43 PM   
mnottertail


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Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Nope, already done it, tax the living shit out of these corporations, and pray to fuck they move out.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/1/2011 3:52:27 PM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline


Did it mention in the 60 minutes show, or anywhere else that one might read about this issue, anything other than those poor poor babies (corps.) having to pay higher tax than other developed economies? Was it mentioned that at least two or three of these other countries have rates only 2% lower with far fewer loopholes? No? Or that the individual tax rates are higher in all those countries? Or that the US is the ONLY country among the ones being compared to with lower corporate rates that does NOT have a national Value Added Tax? They didn't? You mean they NEVER mention any of these inconvenient items when leading in with "shame!, shame!" about these US corps. escaping tax, but always -always- wind up almost having the viewers or readers want to take the poor mega million net worth corporations over our shoulder and pat their back as they sniffle about unfair corp. rates?


Well gosh and golly, with GE and News Corp. media ownership and well, actually all the media in fact being owned by mega corporations, it just escapes me why those other little details about the countries in comparison never get mentioned. One would think that the situation would be better understood if including all equally relevant information after all.


Nah.


'Keep it simple, so people can understand it. And besides, we have to go to commercial break now and don't have time for all the boring stuff.' We got the message across; corporations can behave bad sometimes, but they need love too.



Public service at its finest.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/1/2011 3:54:54 PM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/1/2011 11:18:43 PM   
MrRodgers


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers
I've been trying to tell you preverts, this debate is magniloquent.

The tax code is right where the power that bought it...wants it. There will never be all of these things if only because for just one prime example, as part of GE's non-tax liability...is a $3.5 billion 'tax credit.'

So no flat tax, no tax reform but maybe a fed. sales tax and the rest is conversation. Rather than truly reform the federal corporate or business tax code, pols would rather...stay alive.

R Rep. Rob Woodhall has submitted a bill to remove corporate tax benefits and to trim what even the CATO Inst. says is over a $100 billion a year in corporate welfare. Let's see just how far it goes ?

I do see your point, even if I can't help feeling you are over dramatising it just a tad.

Tax evasion, transfer pricing and whole host of other dodgy practices by multi-nationals are a problem far bigger than any one single country.

Appropriate agreements at G20 level would effectively curtail the ability of MNCs to evade their responsibilities. Such agreements could also address some of the concerns kdsub raised earlier in the thread.

For example, by insisting that any corporation with a turnover in excess of say, $1 billion pa must be registered in, and paying taxes in one of the G20 countries, many of these matters could be dealt with. Each country insisting that corporations of a given size must do their business within its jurisdiction through a locally-registered subsidiary company is another approach. There are also measures like with-holding taxes, provisional taxes and so on that individual countries can implement unilaterally.

All it takes is the political will to address the issue. That can be generated by the taxpayers and citizens through the ballot box and legitimate political campaigns. It's time these MNCs stopped getting free rides. There's no reason why the obligation to pay tax can't be globalised.

I agree with the concept, I just think there isn't nearly enough political response yet that will inspire either house to seriously take up the issue. Even if they do there will be trade offs.  Obscure but as costly, as there often is and any kind of real reform, is simply off the board.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/2/2011 7:48:46 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5


I think there is merit in a nat'l sales tax. Buy more stuff? Pay more tax. There's merit to a flat tax too. If only everyone would just pay a porportional pecentage to income, we'd probably have all the money we need to run the ship of state.

What's wrong with everyone and I mean EVERYONE (corporations now that they're considered people, too) paying say, 8%?

ETA: NO EXCEPTIONS! Nada, zilch, zip!!


What's wrong with it is proportional.

Eight percent from someone making 20K a year puts far more of a burden on them than taking eight percent from someone making 200K a year.



I am quite sure I pay more than 8% in total taxes. Warren Buffett on the other hand pays less than I do.

Don't pick on Warren he is the loudest  voice screaming for an overhaul.He has publicly stated that there is a problem when his secretary pays proportionately more than he does in taxes.


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/2/2011 8:01:46 PM   
slvemike4u


Posts: 17896
Joined: 1/15/2008
From: United States
Status: offline 		I am not a conspiracy advocate....but Mr.Rodgers has a point.Between the rich,the corporations, tax preparation industries(CPA"s ,Lawyers,auditors et al) there is a vested interest in keeping the tax law of this country incomprehensible to the lay man and rife for abuse by those with access to high powered tax attorneys armed with loop holes and tax havens.
Why fix a system that brings forth such riches to the already rich....and it isn't just the fed.State and city municipalities  bid against each other to give larger and larger tax breaks in order to entice industries to uproot and move to more profitable areas.New York city builds two new ballparks for rich sport teams(welfare for big league clubs) and than turns around to debate the best method for deciding which teachers need to be let go.(senority or some sort of performance measurement)
The system is seriously broke...yet it seems no one is interested in fixing it.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/2/2011 11:57:55 PM   
rulemylife


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm open to ideas...remember I'm the classic isolationists...I'd love to end all but essential imports and produce and sell here in the US exclusively...BUT.. I've been told this will not work in a global market...bullshit... but again… then... how can we compete with people paying the $2 - 25 a day and still expect our industry to pay the highest taxes in the world?

Butch


Well.........let's see.

Didn't we just hear about GE paying no taxes and actually receiving a tax benefit?

Yet you want to continue with this argument that U.S. corporations are overtaxed?

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 12:06:38 AM   
Hippiekinkster


Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm open to ideas...remember I'm the classic isolationists...I'd love to end all but essential imports and produce and sell here in the US exclusively...BUT.. I've been told this will not work in a global market...bullshit... but again… then... how can we compete with people paying the $2 - 25 a day and still expect our industry to pay the highest taxes in the world?

Butch


Well.........let's see.

Didn't we just hear about GE paying no taxes and actually receiving a tax benefit?

Yet you want to continue with this argument that U.S. corporations are overtaxed?

Not just a benefit, but a tax credit. I don't think they get it. I'll quote ArtCat from another kink site (close your eyes, Aneirin and all who agree with him; this is a LINK)(cackle):
"
Welcome to tax credits. In honest (but neutral) language, I like to call them subsidies. Tax credits are not a tax benefit. They are not a deduction. They are not a tax break. They are not a PILOT (payment in lieu of taxes). They are not a tax reduction. They are a payment from the government to the recipient, with the condition that it will be applied to any outstanding taxes at the time of tax assessment before direct payment.

They are a subsidy. If you have children, it is subsidized. If you film in Alaska, it is subsidized. If you add certain energy efficient and green features to your home, it is subsidized. The government (in essence) writes a check, deposits it to your tax account, and then the IRS will cut the check for any excess.

The other tax benefits I mention reduce your tax burden and are accounted for in receipt reductions in the government budget. Tax credits pay you while your assessed tax burden remains the same. They are accounted for as treasury payments and still counted as receipts.

Imagine it this way. You want to get a loan, but need twice the income you have to justify it. You send the money from one bank account to another. You write yourself an IOU for the transfer. You claim to the bank twice the income (receipts), pointing to the deposits of both bank accounts. The only planet that flies on without being called fraud is apparently the one inhabited by government legislatures.

Pay much closer attention when politicians talk about passing tax credits. They're not talking about handing out tax breaks. They are talking about handing out checks."

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 12:42:20 AM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
Joined: 8/23/2004
Status: offline 		Poor wording on my part.

I meant benefit as the same as credit.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 2:54:43 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MrRodgers


I agree with the concept, I just think there isn't nearly enough political response yet that will inspire either house to seriously take up the issue. Even if they do there will be trade offs.  Obscure but as costly, as there often is and any kind of real reform, is simply off the board.



Yes I agree with your observation. It is a question of political will. So it's up to us - you me and the electors of both our nations - to generate that will and give the politicians no option but to enact the will of the people via a fair tax system. For Americans, the first step would appear to be to reject GOP policy, if I am permitted to make that observation.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 10:36:33 AM   
Edwynn


Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline


Wot?! By all means, do come in. You are most certainly permitted  to make that observation. That way I can call you 'unamerican' for not wanting to increase tax payer funding for billionaires and oil companies and investment banks and arms manufacturers.


When it comes to anything of importance concerning US governance, your voice has as much affect as ours do.


Trust me on that.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/3/2011 10:39:18 AM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 8:32:47 PM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I'm open to ideas...remember I'm the classic isolationists...I'd love to end all but essential imports and produce and sell here in the US exclusively...BUT.. I've been told this will not work in a global market...bullshit... but again… then... how can we compete with people paying the $2 - 25 a day and still expect our industry to pay the highest taxes in the world?

Butch


Well.........let's see.

Didn't we just hear about GE paying no taxes and actually receiving a tax benefit?

Yet you want to continue with this argument that U.S. corporations are overtaxed?



Yes...you hear...from some damn rag site..unsubstanciated accusations...what do we really know...not a damn thing...Even if it were true with GE, which it could be, what makes you think every...even a majority of companies pay NO taxes?

You are making claims you can't back up not me...Show me how you can prove the majority of companies in the US pay NO taxes.

It seems to be a fact that US companies often have problems competing in the global market for various reasons but one documented one is our tax rate compared to our main competitors.

I have no sympathy for big business but I am trying to point out some problems that will require solutions or our economy will continue to at best stagnate if not it's decline.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/3/2011 8:41:56 PM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 8:37:19 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline 		"If we had privatized social security, the recent financial meltdown would never have happened."

Foolish little bird.

T^T

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 9:47:40 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
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quote:

If we had privatized social security, the recent financial meltdown would never have happened. Or at least been delayed...


I gotta admit, you lost me with this. Care to explain?

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/3/2011 11:30:02 PM   
rulemylife


Posts: 14614
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Well.........let's see.

Didn't we just hear about GE paying no taxes and actually receiving a tax benefit?

Yet you want to continue with this argument that U.S. corporations are overtaxed?



Yes...you hear...from some damn rag site..unsubstanciated accusations...what do we really know...not a damn thing...Even if it were true with GE, which it could be, what makes you think every...even a majority of companies pay NO taxes?

You are making claims you can't back up not me...Show me how you can prove the majority of companies in the US pay NO taxes.

It seems to be a fact that US companies often have problems competing in the global market for various reasons but one documented one is our tax rate compared to our main competitors.

I have no sympathy for big business but I am trying to point out some problems that will require solutions or our economy will continue to at best stagnate if not it's decline.

Butch


For God's sake, some damn rag site?


General Electric Paid No Federal Taxes in 2010 - ABC News

GE Pays No Taxes - Taxes - Fox Nation

How General Electric pays no tax at all - Home | Mail Online

Obama jobs chief -- the CEO of GE -- pays no corporate taxes


How many more would you like, because I can fill up pages with it?


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 4:47:03 AM   
marti200965


Posts: 24
Joined: 3/23/2011
Status: offline 		That would be a nice place to start

but do not hold your breath

it is not very likely to happen

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 5:03:27 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Out of the Top 25 US Companies, the following paid no taxes. (And Ford might as well paid none)

What The 25 Top U.S. Companies Pay In Taxes

No. 4: General Electric
Sales: $157 billion
Pretax income: $10.3 billion
Income taxes: (-$1.1 billion)
Tax rate: N/A

GE's financial services unit, GE Capital, keeps the overall tax bill so low. Over the last two years, GE Capital has displayed an uncanny ability to lose lots of money in the U.S. and make lots of money overseas, where tax rates are lower.

..............

No. 7: Bank of America
Sales: $120 billion
Pretax income: $4.4 billion
Income taxes: (-$1.9 billion)
Tax rate: N/A

How did Bank of America not pay any taxes on $4.4 billion in income? Because of deductions like $860 million in tax-exempt income, $670 million in low-income housing credits and a $600 million loss on shares of foreign subsidiaries. With a provision for credit losses of $49 billion, Bank of America probably won't be paying taxes for a long time.

..........

No. 8: Ford Motor
Sales: $118 billion
Pretax income: $3 billion
Income taxes: $69 million
Tax rate: 2.3%

Ford's tax rate is so low because of past years' losses from U.S. operations.

..........

No. 19: Citigroup
Sales: $80 billion
Pretax income: ($7.8 billion)
Income taxes: ($6.7 billion)
Tax rate: N/A

With $17.5 billion in future tax deductions and credits on the books, and a $39 billion provision for loan losses, Citi has many tax-free years ahead of it.

........


No. 25: Valero
Sales: $68 billion
Pretax income: (-$450 million)
Income taxes: (-$100 million)
Tax rate: N/A

A gasoline glut means no profits or taxes for Valero.
http://www.forbes.com/2010/04/01/ge-exxon-walmart-business-washington-corporate-taxes_slide_26.html

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 5:21:24 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

General Electric


Tazzy in using GE you and rule are confirming my point. They manage to shift their tax burden exactly as the 60 minutes article I linked shows. They shift all profit to overseas headquarters thus taking advantage of lower tax rates.

The US looses the tax while the overseas country gains taxes. If the rate were lower here they would have no reason to do this.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/4/2011 6:08:02 AM >

_____________________________

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I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 5:26:33 AM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Explain to me, if you can, the benefit of such companies to have the US as their headquarters? If you take a look at the link, you will see other companies ...

Boeing...

No. 24: Boeing
Sales: $68 billion
Pretax income: $1.7 billion
Income taxes: $400 million
Tax rate: 23%

Boeing's lower tax rate is mostly the result of big research and development tax credits.

.......

No. 23: Costco
Sales: $71 billion
Pretax income: $1.7 billion
Income taxes: $630 million
Tax rate: 36.7%

Of the companies in this list, Costco can be proud of having the most straightforward (and refreshing) financial statements.

........

No. 22: AmerisourceBergen
Sales: $72 billion
Pretax income: $824 million
Income taxes: $312 million
Tax rate: 38%

.........

And on and on....... if its so easy for some companies, why not others? Why havent these companies taken the same road? Are they able too or are these overseas tax breaks only for a select group?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to kdsub)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 6:07:20 AM   
kdsub


Posts: 12180
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		Tazzy did you look at the 60 minutes link? If you have I don't see why you don't understand what I am saying. If the US tax rate was competitive with countries such as Ireland the GE’s of America would have no reason to have multiple headquarters in other countries.

They did pay taxes tazzy just not in America…they paid in countries with lower tax rates. We get nothing now but would recover the money paid overseas with a competitive rate.

Butch

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

(in reply to tazzygirl)
Profile   Post #: 60
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