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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:46:07 PM   
Lucylastic


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Status: offline 		Damn fine choice there Mike
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(in reply to slvemike4u)
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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:51:29 PM   
tweakabelle


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Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub


I was just pointing out the problem and trying to show there are reasons for the actions of corporate America...not justifying or even agreeing with. However a tax reduction would be worth a try in my estimation. Damit...lol... I am not a tea party cut all tax nut case. I believe we must pay our way in this world and that requires taxes...but i want them to be realistic and productive.

tweakabelle your idea has merit of course but you have to know it will never fly in the US. I mean any hint at any law or organization with any control over any part of America, justified or not, is doomed. It is just the way we are...don't ya think?

Butch

There's plenty of co-operation at G20 level kdsub. Law enforcement (esp counter-terrorism) has been one of the primary areas in recent years. Fiscal policy co-ordination is another. Getting MNCs to pay their share of the tax burden has got to be good politics for the US centre and left.

The key is political will. Unless that's present it's a lost cause. And that's hardly an area for me to make an assessment about. It's up to the citizens and politicians of the USA to generate that.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:59:39 PM   
RacerJim


Posts: 1583
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		Perhaps Obama/Soetoro and the Democratic majority Congress should have started by enacting a 2011 Federal Budget when they were required to do so by the U.S. Constitution.

I say the GOP should do the same thing the Dems did right after they became the majority..."We won!" "You are welcome to come along for the ride but you have to sit in the back of the bus."

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 1:02:28 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		maybe you can point that little gem out there Mr. Constitution.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 1:04:41 PM   
RacerJim


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

maybe you can point that little gem out there Mr. Constitution.

Anyone who doesn't know that little gem should have their computer, cell phone and voting rights taken away.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 1:05:43 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		anyone who believes such a gem is devoid of fact.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 1:08:38 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		The U.S. Constitution (Article I, section 9, clause 7) states that "[n]o money shall be drawn from the Treasury, but in Consequence of Appropriations made by Law; and a regular Statement and Account of Receipts and Expenditures of all public Money shall be published from time to time."

And that's it for constitution and budget, you guys howling about living by and strict adherence to the constitution should read the fucking thing.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 1:08:52 PM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RacerJim

Perhaps Obama/Soetoro and the Democratic majority Congress should have started by enacting a 2011 Federal Budget when they were required to do so by the U.S. Constitution.

I say the GOP should do the same thing the Dems did right after they became the majority..."We won!" "You are welcome to come along for the ride but you have to sit in the back of the bus."

I love how neo cons and their fellow travelers try and pretend the GOP majority treated the Democratic minority fairly and listened to their complaints.

You know how we're up to our necks in debt? The Bush tax cuts that caused most of the problem were passed by a little maneuver called reconciliation.
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/mar/04/alan-grayson/bush-tax-cuts-were-passed-reconciliations-50-votes/

And that's because there was no way they could get the needed Democratic votes to invoke cloture. Does that remind anyone of certain events last year? Does anyone perhaps remember the GOP minority complaining bitterly about receiving the EXACT SAME TREATMENT THEY HAD GIVEN TO DEMOCRATS?

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 1:27:32 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

The key is political will. Unless that's present it's a lost cause. And that's hardly an area for me to make an assessment about. It's up to the citizens and politicians of the USA to generate that.



As for the tax rates themselves, that's at least partially true insofar as it goes.


But as for addressing the operations of these schemes, being that a preponderance of OFCs are located in British territory of some sort, and that a preponderance of them are operated by UK companies, and that after the US, the UK is also home to quite a few of these corporate tax evaders, I'm with you on not being able to asses whether the citizens and politicians of the USA have the political will to generate a sufficient response to all that.



Table 2. on this page:

http://www.imf.org/external/np/mae/oshore/2000/eng/back.htm#II_A







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/6/2011 1:37:51 PM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 2:09:32 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Damn fine choice there Mike
Deep respect

Much appreciated dear Lady,though I must say it is paying dividends already,there is a new spring in my step,and a joyful tune constantly ringing in my ears.


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/8/2011 11:52:42 PM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Below is an article I found that seems to support complaints about consistent long term tax evasion and non-payment by some of the USA's biggest and most influential corporations, accompanied by a big shift in wealth from the poor to the rich:

Robin Hood in Reverse in US: Seven Examples by Bill Quigley

The rich have been getting richer and the poor and middle have been getting poorer in the US recently. Here are seven examples that show how the US is going through Robin Hood in Reverse.

Between 1948 and 1979, the richest 10 percent of families in the US claimed 33 percent of average income growth. Between 2000 and 2007, the richest 10 percent claimed a full 100 percent of average income growth in the US, according to the Economic Policy Institute.

Business taxes were cut from 46 to 34 percent 25 years ago, according to Pro Publica. But today 115 of the big 500 companies listed on Standard and Poor’s Stock Index paid federal and other taxes of less than 20 percent over the last 5 years according to David Leonhardt of the New York Times.

General Electric’s tax rate for last year was 7 percent according to Pro Publica.

The top 5 percent US households claim 63 percent of the entire country’s wealth. The bottom 80 percent hold just 13% of the growth, according to the Economic Policy Institute.

Last year, John Paulson, a hedge fund manager “earned” $4.9 billion, according to the New York Times. Ten years ago it took 25 such managers to collectively earn that much. Last year the top 25 hedge fund managers pocketed (a much better word) a total of $22 billion. It would take over 440,000 people each earning $50,000 a year to match that amount.

A federal development program intended to help poor communities, the New Market Tax Credit, instead funnels up to ten billion taxpayer dollars to big corporations like JPMorgan Chase & Co, Goldman Sachs and Prudential to build luxury hotels, office buildings and a car museum. Bloomberg Markets Magazine pointed to the Blackstone Hotel in Chicago which was renovated for $116 million. Prudential got $15.6 million in tax credit from the US Treasury for helping fund the project because the hotel was in a census zone that included two colleges which housed a lot of lower income students.

According to the Financial Times, there are now more people living in poverty in the US than at any time in the last 50 years. Foreclosure filings were nearly 4 million in 2010, up 23 percent since 2008 according to RealtyTrac.

Bill Quigley is Legal Director at the Center for Constitutional Rights and a law professor at Loyola University New Orleans.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article27847.htm

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/8/2011 11:54:43 PM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/9/2011 4:38:31 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline


Do you know why Greece, Italy, Spain, Portugal are having such trouble these days with their government bond ratings and high interest they must pay? Because they don't know how to collect taxes. The stated tax rates are a joke, there are loopholes galore, and enforcement is weak.  Not because they "have too much socialism"; several other Euro countries have more government provided services than they do. They simply have a serious revenue shortfall because of the tax collection/loophole situation. Of course the Westinghouse/GE/Murdoch media never point out that little detail, just the "they must cut expenses and reduce social services" part.

Assuming a country that actually knows how to collect taxes, it actually is the smarter way to go to have lower corporate rates and higher individual rates, as would describe most advanced economies. It's the individual that ultimately benefits, so tax in accordance with the individual benefit obtained from the regulatory and legal infrastructure of that country that is funded by taxes. We shouldn't tax those of the highest income levels just because they "make too much money," but rather to be in accordance with the benefit they obtain as result of the system that allows them such opportunity. Everybody pays for this governmental/legal/regulatory system, so it makes sense that those who derive greatest benefit from it pay accordingly.

So then where does the US stand in all this? Which countries does the US more resemble at present? What is the congress currently making great effort towards, and in which direction will this drive us to? The latest efforts I'm aware of involve more cuts 'across the board' (but not really, get serious folks, the cuts are well targeted to the lower strata) and, while the media deftly distracts attention elsewhere, more tax cuts and loopholes in the bargain, for guess who.


Give it 5 years or so, and we won't just be hearing about the PIGS countries anymore, but rather the USPIGS countries, all having in common the inability to collect revenue from those obtaining the greatest benefit from their respective infrastructures.


PS

Excellent post above, tweakstress. I'm sure either of us could keep coming up with one after another of these, all day. Sad just how easy that actually is, and ever more so how none of it will penetrate where needed. I feel myself as to be in some "for the record" mode here.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/9/2011 5:07:19 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/9/2011 6:04:50 AM   
tweakabelle


Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
Status: offline 		Thanks Edwynn. I wish I could say that things are different here but it's much the same story. We're insulated against the worst of the GFC because of a boom in primary resource exports to China, and to a lesser extent India. So nett debt levels, housing and employment are all fine. Everyone agrees the economy is fine to booming. But the same shift of wealth from poor to rich, and the same scapegoating is rife here too.

Tho I suppose that proves the point doesn't it? It doesn't seem to matter at all what state the economy, budget deficit or national debt is in. The same ideologically driven targetting of the poor, and avarice-driven shift of wealth to the rich is happening.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/9/2011 6:08:48 AM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/9/2011 7:52:24 AM   
Edwynn


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Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline


What's amazing to me, t-belle, is that this sort are alive and well in countries that are models of both social and economic success. There are some in Sweden, Germany, The Netherlands, Denmark, etc. that keep calling for "less regulation," and the majority of it concerning the financial sector. Just what are these people saying? Do they even realize what they are saying? "Let's have a wild west caveat emptor every man for himself system like the US, so we can crash our economy too!"

There will always be people like this, and it requires nothing short of the greatest vigilance to fend them off. The aforementioned countries are succeeding in that regard so far, but all this focus on 'austerity' by the worldwide (not just US) media has me wondering if these nations have the wits and good sense to keep the strong foot on these idiots' throats as firmly as needed.

And I hope that we keep in mind that it's not actually 'the rich' who all as a group are doing this. I have no problem at all with someone having the talent and perspicacity and marketability of their skills to amass some fortune. What I take great issue with is with those who amass such fortune in businesses that are founded and based upon 'tax structures,' subsidies, credits, etc., not to mention the occasional bail out, and it being that this same contingent  always have the largest lobbying groups and are the backers of most any 'think tank' in existence, and constantly pester their governments to keep arranging things ever more in their favor, ...  because that is the de facto business model! Whatever products or services they are selling, the cost reductions and market share boosting all ultimately derive from governmental direction, which in the countries who cannot get a handle on it is actually saying corporate direction.

(heads up to US workers; that deduction from your paycheck might say 'income tax,' but the accurate description would actually be 'Exon/GE/Monsanto/Koch Bros. deduction,'  ...  just so you know).


Aside from the legal requirement to vote, a vote still matters in your country, unlike here, so I hope you and yours can keep up with things and recognize what's coming before it hits you. Nothing is ever perfect in any country, but all my uni studies and individual reading on these matters conduce to one thing; decide for yourself what your country should or shouldn't do in the way of conducting society, the economy, services, etc., but if you don't have a good grip on regulation, none of any proposed structure or direction elsewise will make any difference.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/9/2011 8:22:36 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)
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