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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 11:36:52 AM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

quote:

General Electric


Tazzy in using GE you and rule are confirming my point. They manage to shift their tax burden exactly as the 60 minutes article I linked shows. They shift all profit to overseas headquarters thus taking advantage of lower tax rates.

The US looses the tax while the overseas country gains taxes. If the rate were lower here they would have no reason to do this.

Butch
I'm trying to understand the logic present(I am taking a leap of faith here,as I personally see no logic present in any of this)in this theory.You are saying that corporations shift profit overseas due to high US tax rates.That they seek loopholes and skirt the law to avoid paying such high fees....right so far?
Than you go on to claim that if we were to simply lower the rates(I assume you mean to a rate that they will like) they will than start acting like responsible citizens of this great country and no longer skirt their obligation by shifting profits off shore.
Is that about it?
Excuse me if I claim that this sounds like a load of bullshit...and that no adult,with an honest and open mind,could believe such tripe.


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If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 11:41:26 AM   
cuckoldmepls


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Status: offline 		Well which way do you want it? Do you want corporations out of politics and not paying taxes or do you want them to pay taxes and remain in politics. You can't have it both ways. Thats what the original tea party was all about. Taxation without representation.

Besides GE already held a press conference on the bad press. They said they had lost 100's of millions of dollars in the years before, which of course, means they can write it off on future taxes for a while.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 11:47:23 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		I want them to pay their fair fucking share of taxes on their profits.....Not to "be in politics" so as to lobby for loopholes that ,in effect,mean they don't pay any fucking taxes.
Which is pretty much what is going on right now.


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 12:30:59 PM   
Moonhead


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Status: offline 		I love the way you have people on here who spend all their time bitching about being expected to pay taxes making excuses for corporate tax dodges and offshore finance. WTF is that about?

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 12:34:23 PM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		I think that corporate boards across America want to keep their jobs. If they don't do everything they can to optimize profit they will be replaced. If they can lower their tax burden by 5 or even 10 percent they will and the investors...you and me... if we have money in their companies, demand they do it.

Come on... its OK to be righteous as long as it doesn't take money out of your pocket...right?

Again... I am spelling it out like it is not how it should be.

Now if we are competitive with taxes they would not need nor want to pay for foreign headquarters...and the good hypocritical patriotic investors would crow loudly about being good Americans.

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/4/2011 12:35:24 PM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 12:43:42 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Jail the fuckers for fraud, and deport them.  WE DON"T NEED THEM.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/4/2011 2:33:11 PM   
Edwynn


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Fine then. Let's lower the corporate rate.

The sticky part is, where is this supposed to come from? I'm assuming that most here are well aware of the growing US deficit. So then, with what do we replace the lost income from the lower corporate rate? How many guesses does one need?

Here's part one of how everybody else does it:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg/800px-Income_Taxes_By_Country.svg.png

With both personal and corporate rates in the table above the highest rates are listed, most if not all countries having more than one rate.

Individual rates alone compared, more recent:
http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/briefing-book/background/numbers/international.cfm


Part two of how everybody else does it:

By having a VAT or national sales tax of some sort. Note the little "everybody else" detail there, being that the US is alone among all these countries in not having one.

Have a look:
http://www.worldtaxpayers.org/stat_vat.htm


Putting all that together, here are what the total collections (indiv., corp., VAT) add up to as percentage of GDP:

http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/taxation/total-tax-revenue_20758510-table2

In 2010 (far right column) only two countries collected a lower % than the US; Chile and Mexico.


So then considering where lies the mindset of some quite vocal interests in this country, how well do you think it would go over were we to do what's necessary to make the US corporate rates closer to those other countries?



Oh, I hear the loud cheers already! (those are cheers, aren't they? .... )







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/4/2011 3:07:35 PM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/5/2011 9:35:46 AM   
tweakabelle


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Status: offline 		kdsub, I can see the logic in your position. But to me you are proposing an appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Far better in my view, to propose action at a G20 level to eliminate tax shifting across jurisdictions.

Or, simply insist that any business done in the G20 countries over a certain level (say $1 billion in sales pa) must be done through a locally-registered subsidiary.

Either of these approaches would deal with the issue. There is no reason why MNC tax obligations can't be globalised in today's world. They have gotten away with it for long enough and you and I and everyone else pays for it.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 6:02:47 AM   
NeedToUseYou


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Status: offline 		The focus really should be on reduced spending, primarily.

We could if our warmonger presidents ever stopped bombing backward middle eastern countries cut the military budget by 2/3's and lose very little if you figure the burden the military/defense imposes on the average to every single tax payer it is about 8000 dollars a year. So, we could easily reduce the to 3000/ year. Giving an average tax reduction of 5000 dollars or apply it to something useful.

Also the interest on the debt is over 2000 dollars per working person / year in the US.

So, ignoring medicare, social security, etc.... We are trashing 7000 dollars a year/ US taxpayer. That is more than all corporate taxes.

Then we build coal plants, and or nuke plants (non-earthquake zones), and prepare to transition to as much of an all electric system over the next few decades while this renewable crap gets better, and batteries get better. If you eliminated what we export paying for oil, you eliminated about half of the trade imbalance. Once that transition is underway, the profits raked in killing brown people for oil will greatly diminish, and there would be no need to spend ourselves into oblivion for fear of losing "our" oil supply.

At least that's a productive start... You can tax the corps into oblivion it wouldn't fix the present budget problems. We simply spend to much, and buy to much oil.

Then you take care of the rest by mandating rational medical care coverage, that will not allow non-standard treatments to be paid for by the government and or according to a maximum yearly expenditure. If people want more then they can fork it over. Unfortunately there is not infinite money, so medical care can not universally pay for million dollar treatments for 80 year olds or whatever case that requires anomalous exorbitant costs. I'd be in favor of making the maximum yearly expense decline with age. Personally, but whichever, their has to be limits.

Then you eliminate the stupid current tax code, with some form of flat tax. Outlaw all forms of corporate welfare(subsidized loans, tax credits, research grants, all of it gone).

Then you eliminate all foreign aid. No exceptions.


Then the budget is balanced.

Then you permenantly out law the government from ever entering into debt, except in the case we are attacked on our 50 states soil, and enter an officially authorized war, and this debt can only be financed via bonds sold to US citizens, and after the war it must be paid back in a period no greater than 3 times the length of the war.

There fixed it for you.


I can remove more fat if you like.




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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 6:18:38 AM   
Sanity


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You want to eliminate every possible chance they have of competing on the world stage, effectively doom them and damn our prospects to raise income taxes from their employees and their top officers...

You want all successful corporations to be based in China or India, etc.


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I want them to pay their fair fucking share of taxes on their profits.....Not to "be in politics" so as to lobby for loopholes that ,in effect,mean they don't pay any fucking taxes.
Which is pretty much what is going on right now.



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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 6:26:16 AM   
slvemike4u


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Status: offline 		Please someone,anyone at all,come along and handle this.....please?


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 8:36:00 AM   
kdsub


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Status: offline 		Edwynn

Thanks for taking the time to lay out statistics. I believe some are misleading however but still impressive. The cost of living in these various societies and the average family income could...I say could change the over all theme. Also the services provided, such as health insurance, with the personal tax is not taken into consideration in your statistics. Otherwise if you pay a higher tax but do not have to pay extreme premiums on health insurance it will change the bang for the buck so to speak...get my drift?

I also think you are missing an important component of this argument. Maybe... rather than a good portion of industry paying no or little tax at a high rate... a good portion paying all or most at a lower rate would increase over all tax income rather than lower it?

Butch

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 8:44:06 AM   
kdsub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

kdsub, I can see the logic in your position. But to me you are proposing an appeal to the lowest common denominator.

Far better in my view, to propose action at a G20 level to eliminate tax shifting across jurisdictions.

Or, simply insist that any business done in the G20 countries over a certain level (say $1 billion in sales pa) must be done through a locally-registered subsidiary.

Either of these approaches would deal with the issue. There is no reason why MNC tax obligations can't be globalised in today's world. They have gotten away with it for long enough and you and I and everyone else pays for it.


I was just pointing out the problem and trying to show there are reasons for the actions of corporate America...not justifying or even agreeing with. However a tax reduction would be worth a try in my estimation. Damit...lol... I am not a tea party cut all tax nut case. I believe we must pay our way in this world and that requires taxes...but i want them to be realistic and productive.

tweakabelle your idea has merit of course but you have to know it will never fly in the US. I mean any hint at any law or organization with any control over any part of America, justified or not, is doomed. It is just the way we are...don't ya think?

Butch

< Message edited by kdsub -- 4/6/2011 8:47:29 AM >

_____________________________

Mark Twain:

I don't see any use in having a uniform and arbitrary way of spelling words. We might as well make all clothes alike and cook all dishes alike. Sameness is tiresome; variety is pleasing

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 11:17:17 AM   
Sanity


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Whats the matter mike, you cant handle it yourself?

Bad hair year, or what.

Dont worry though, Ive got it.

We dont charge tariffs anymore due to all our free trade agreements, and so our corporations have to directly compete with foreign corporations on the world stage. If we raise taxes on our corporations that puts them at a stiff disadvantage.

Understand?


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Please someone,anyone at all,come along and handle this.....please?



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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 11:20:03 AM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		How are they at a stiff disadvantage?

How about some facts and figures comparing actual numbers (money, wages, taxes) with comparable companies, say 3M in Minnesota and DuPont in France?

Because there is some really really incorrect notions floating around here.

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 11:26:28 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Please someone,anyone at all,come along and handle this.....please?



I'm sorry mike. I read your post and his reply a few times and I just can't explain it. Bad smoke maybe


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:00:18 PM   
Sanity


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Other nations subsidize or even own corporations outright, you want specifics go fetch. Its not on me to educate you

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

How are they at a stiff disadvantage?

How about some facts and figures comparing actual numbers (money, wages, taxes) with comparable companies, say 3M in Minnesota and DuPont in France?

Because there is some really really incorrect notions floating around here.


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Inside Every Liberal Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:13:39 PM   
mnottertail


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Other nations subsidize or even own corporations outright, you want specifics go fetch. Its not on me to educate you

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

How are they at a stiff disadvantage?

How about some facts and figures comparing actual numbers (money, wages, taxes) with comparable companies, say 3M in Minnesota and DuPont in France?

Because there is some really really incorrect notions floating around here.



Right, exactly, only the USA subsidizes corporations.

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Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:15:00 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

I also think you are missing an important component of this argument. Maybe... rather than a good portion of industry paying no or little tax at a high rate... a good portion paying all or most at a lower rate would increase over all tax income rather than lower it?

Butch


No, I'm not overlooking that factor at all but the post was lengthy enough as it was and I always anticipate that the majority here find charts and graphs and explanation of basic economic workings etc. to be quite boring (I can understand!), however much putative clarity it may contribute, so I self edit sometimes in favor of the salient point to the detriment of thoroughness.

Of course, a lower rate with no loopholes that is actually enforced, and for all, not just some, would stand a good chance of bringing in more revenue than the current scheme. But therin lies the problem, and explanation of the difficulty in changing the situation. The TV reports and financial publications always, without fail, present the issue as corporations only fulfilling their duty to shareholders in maximizing after-tax profits, claiming that they would gladly keep it all aboveboard and at home but for the statutory tax rates. Would any thinking person fall for this line? Let's understand what is actually being said were they to word it properly; "Our company pays 11-12% per year now, on average, but we'd love to be properly domiciled where we actually manufacture and sell the products and pay 25% (approx. the lowest rate of non-Irish countries), like good responsible corporate citizens." Really now? But our reliable media, anywhere I've seen their presentation of it, trot this out as a credible argument, of course with all the obligatory 'left unsaid' misdirection and distraction-from-logical-conclusion that is their expertise. Make no mistake, these largest corporations have no interest whatsoever in changing the current situation. And it should be no surprise at all that Westinghouse/CBS, GE/NBC, etc. all make sure to have the best reporters and opinion writers set to the task of coming up with all these 'exposé' contrivances that in every case leaves the viewer/reader predictably with the same response; "these poor guys!"

Ireland's tax rate is far lower than other European countries, yet The US takes advantage of the disparity far more than others, some few of them having rates within 2% of the US rate. The difference is that the majority of those countries have a much better handle on regulation overall than than does the US, of which they consider making the tax code meaningful to be an important element therein, hence companies cannot get away with a small office in Ireland as providing legitimate domicile for a multibillion euro  company and they know it. And whichever companies found it to their advantage to actually pick up stakes and move operations elsewhere have done so, and those countries they left are the better for it.

Here's another list (sorry) that I think is rather instructive; services sector as proportion of GDP:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_gdp_com_by_sec_ser-economy-gdp-composition-sector-services

The thing to notice here is that of all the countries ahead of the US are quite small, and all but two or three of them are tax havens and/or provide offices for OFCs (offshore financial corporations), some of whom do not even require records or verification of the principle party, only some purpose-made agent having name on whatever documents. Look at all those British isles, former territories, etc. They also have an inordinate amount of p/c GDP; you think that's all from tourism? Didn't know Jersey was such a hot spot, did'ja? Ireland is the one currently getting all the attention, but these little islands are where the real action is for corporate tax evaders. Believe you me, minimal and non-representative 'record keeping,' such as it exists, is even far more valuable than an 11% corporate rate. Understand the red herring purpose in all this focus on Ireland now? I call it mission accomplished.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/6/2011 1:03:42 PM >

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RE: Perhap the GOP should start here if they wish to re... - 4/6/2011 12:39:36 PM   
slvemike4u


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Please someone,anyone at all,come along and handle this.....please?



I'm sorry mike. I read your post and his reply a few times and I just can't explain it. Bad smoke maybe

No,problems boi....I will just keep biting my tongue,thereby keeping a promise I made myself.....his education falls to others from here on in


_____________________________

If we want things to stay as they are,things will have to change...Tancredi from "the Leopard"

Forget Guns-----Ban the pools

Funny stuff....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNwFf991d-4


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