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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:14:55 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Jones the book burner.
Who else would I be referring to?
GWB.

Jones has no legal responsibility whatsoever under US law. Moral, ethical? I'm not even convinced of that. Nobody forced the shitheads to go nuts and murder innocent people in cold blood. They did that entirely of their own free will.

Now are you going to try arguing that Jones forced the shithead goatfuckers to murder?


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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:22:55 AM   
Moonhead


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No, I'm arguing that free speech carries a certain degree of responsibility, and it's hard to imagine the attention seeking cretin not having any inkling that something like this might be a result, however stupid he is. Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy. It isn't like there aren't any precedents, after all.

(And I call GWB "the chimp" not "idiot boy", btw.)

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:32:05 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, I'm arguing that free speech carries a certain degree of responsibility, and it's hard to imagine the attention seeking cretin not having any inkling that something like this might be a result, however stupid he is. Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy. It isn't like there aren't any precedents, after all.

(And I call GWB "the chimp" not "idiot boy", btw.)
I understand what you are arguing. I see the same argument elsewhere, by predominantly non-Americans or resident aliens.

And I'm telling you that under US law he can say and do whatever he wants, unless the Supreme Court has ruled that there is something people cannot do. The 1stA is being tested all the time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_United_States
However, it only applies to citizens of the US. There might be a case if he had directly incited hatespeech by burning the book in front of a mosque in Dearborn MI, and those people reacted, but even then, he probably is protected by the 1stA.

That's how it is. Accept it.


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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:39:32 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy.

Where, precisely, does not giving them an "excuse for a frenzy" stop?

K.






< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/3/2011 5:42:33 AM >

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:42:52 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy.

Where, precisely, does giving them an "excuse" for a frenzy stop?

K.

An outstanding question. I'd like to know the answer as well.


_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:54:53 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Moonhead

Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy.

Where, precisely, does not giving them an "excuse for a frenzy" stop?

K.



This side of informing the media that you're burning korans to wind up the mooslims, I suspect.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 5:56:58 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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FR

Both parties are morons.  One morons actions resulted in a book being burned.  Said book is sacred to other morons.  Other morons actions resulted in the loss of much human life.

Sometimes I do feel like we, the USA, are bullies regarding foreign affairs.  This aint one of those times.  

Him deciding to burn the book shows his stupidity.  Them killing so many shows their brutality.  

Had they come to Florida and killed him, I would think, yanno shit happens.  That would be culling of the herd that made sense to me.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:02:42 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

To my eyes Jones knowingly set in motion a chain of events that resulted in the massacre. Without his cynically reckless narcissistic self promoting self interested intervention, 12 more human beings would be alive today and the world would be a slightly saner, healthier place

Well I certainly look forward to seeing you put your views into action before a bunch of "cynically reckless narcissistic self promoting self interested" Australians get a lot of people killed.

ISLAMIC preacher Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon points heavenwards to emphasise his message for the governments of Australia -- there is no God but Allah and only his laws should be obeyed...

"One day Australia will live under sharia; it's inevitable," he said. "If they (Australians) don't accept it, that's not our problem. We hope, and our objective is to have a peaceful transition, but when you look at history that has never been the case. There's always been a fight. It is inevitable that one day there will be a struggle for Islam in Australia."


Reference: The Australian - January 20, 2011

K.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:20:20 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

To my eyes Jones knowingly set in motion a chain of events that resulted in the massacre. Without his cynically reckless narcissistic self promoting self interested intervention, 12 more human beings would be alive today and the world would be a slightly saner, healthier place

Well I certainly look forward to seeing you put your views into action before a bunch of "cynically reckless narcissistic self promoting self interested" Australians get a lot of people killed.

ISLAMIC preacher Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon points heavenwards to emphasise his message for the governments of Australia -- there is no God but Allah and only his laws should be obeyed...

"One day Australia will live under sharia; it's inevitable," he said. "If they (Australians) don't accept it, that's not our problem. We hope, and our objective is to have a peaceful transition, but when you look at history that has never been the case. There's always been a fight. It is inevitable that one day there will be a struggle for Islam in Australia."


Reference: The Australian - January 20, 2011

K.


I do hope you aren't suggesting that I take that idiot seriously Kirata and I know you have far too much intelligence to take it terribly seriously either. He can say whatever he pleases because he knows there are no consequences to his words.

Jones can't, he knew (or had a very good idea) what the likely consequences would be. Perhaps you can offer an answer to the question isoLadyOwner ducked earlier in the thread:

What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 4/3/2011 6:34:54 AM >


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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:25:29 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?


What sane person would kill innocent people over some idiot burning a BOOK.  It is a damn book.

I agree the preacher is nuts, but, to me, his actions and that of the folks who savagely murdered innocents, are apples and oranges.  No, apples and F-14's.  Or apples and corns on the big toes of retired nurses.

Far far apart-lol.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:36:54 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?


First you would have to prove that he really believed anyone would be killed.

Maybe he thought that others were exaggerating and that no one would really start killing innocents over a book being burned. Personally, I have a hard time with the concept myself. It's a book, not a person.


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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:41:58 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

[
I agree the preacher is nuts, but, to me, his actions and that of the folks who savagely murdered innocents, are apples and oranges.  No, apples and F-14's.  Or apples and corns on the big toes of retired nurses.

Far far apart-lol.

I addressed this point earlier in the thread - post #29 if you haven't read it. There are quite a number of similarities between Jones' behaviour and that of the mullahs who whipped the peasants to a frenzy. Please check it out.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:45:48 AM   
Moonhead


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi
First you would have to prove that he really believed anyone would be killed.

Maybe he thought that others were exaggerating and that no one would really start killing innocents over a book being burned.

After all of the press coverage you've had in the states of beheadings, film makers and cartoonists being murdered, and the rest?
If he's stupid enough to think that wasn't a possibility after all of the media interest he'd stirred up, he probably shouldn't be trusted with matches, never mind running a church congregation.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:47:11 AM   
stellauk


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Here, let me show you something. Let's take what you wrote...

quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner

The Muslims who beheaded UN workers are responsible for beheading UN workers.

There will always be something for Islamists to take offense at. Be it a political cartoon, providing girls with an education, allowing women to drive, or a preacher burning a piece of paper in Florida.


..and without changing any of the structure of this post change some of the terms..

quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner

The Republicans who bombed Iraqis are responsible for bombing Muslims.

There will always be something for Republicans to take offense at. Be it a black US President, providing poor people with welfare, allowing women to decide about their own bodies, or a gay couple legalizing their relationship in Florida.



There's a reason for this. When you stifle human individuality and enforce conformity among a group of people you encourage people to believe that the majority is always right and also hostility towards those who don't fit in with the norm.

This is true if you were born and raised in a one horse town in the middle of Nebraska, in the middle of a massive land mass composed of other states which is the United States. Head anywhere out of Nebraska in any direction and you will come to other states with one horse towns which are pretty much the same as Nebraska.

This is also true if you were circumcized as a child, were conditioned to pray five times a day east towards Mecca, believing in your Muslim brotherhood and that Muhammad is the one and only true prophet and Allah is the one and only true God.

We have the same thing here in the UK. Take somewhere as Yorkshire, for example. Yorkshire on a map is five different counties - West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Cleveland and Humberside, but in people's heads it's still Yorkshire, there is still that same parochialism, the same as what you find in Northern Ireland, in Scotland, in Wales, the same as what you find anywhere else.

This is why when that person moves from the one horse town in Nebraska to somewhere like New York, like someone from Yorkshire moving to London, they feel alone and isolated among all the diversity, the differences in people's faces, they feel alienated, and this explains why some of them join cults and other subcultures.

This is why we also have the Taliban in the first place. When you are conditioned to believe that the West in all its cultural superiority is immoral, indecent, when you feel it goes against the fundamental teachings of Islam you start to feel defensive and start wanting to do something about it.

It's the exact same logic and thinking as the reaction to 9/11 and the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, which most Americans perceived to be an attack on Americans, their way of life, their culture, their identity and this is what started the whole war on terrorism.

This is why it's such a problem for Americans right now. The Internet is working against what we believe to be American culture, and that what was once internal, existing only within the borders of the United States, is transcending the borders simply through being online and accessible to people from all over the world - take this message board for example. It's breaking down that cultural imperialism the Americans once had, and showing American society and culture in its true light.

Thing is, if you are a public person, such as a preacher, a politician, just like an actor or a singer, you have a greater influence on society and culture and this carries with it a moral responsibility not shared with the rest of society. This is because you are representative. You also share some of the responsibility of how people respond and react to what you say, what you do, and how you express yourself in a public capacity.

Ever wondered why it is illegal to burn a national flag? Or to destroy a banknote? It's not just the burning of the cloth or the paper which makes it an issue, but the destruction of what it symbolizes. The Holy Koran, like the Holy Bible, isn't just a book, it's a book which carries a lot of symbolism and a lot of meaning for many people.

It's no different to an angry mob of Islamic fundamentalists gathered in a town square burning the American flag, which can be perceived to be an offensive, hostile act towards all Americans. Now imagine that the United States is an occupied terrority occupied by Islamic soldiers, let's say the Taliban as an example. Now let's say for example Americans everywhere are under the control of the Taliban, and a mullah decides to burn the Stars and Stripes in a mosque in downtown Kabul. Would that not cause offense among Americans and provoke a demonstration?

This in itself explains that special UK-US relationship. Unlike the United States, which is somewhat geographically isolated, having Canada to the north and Mexico to the south and a large ocean east and west we are a relatively small group of islands off the coast of Europe. Our history, which is much longer, is filled with conflicts, both internally and externally, wars with Ireland, with France, with Russia, with every other European nation apart from Poland and Greece, and this also explains why we have diplomacy - our part of the bargain - down to a fine art. Imagine what would have happened had Churchill not been there together with Stalin and Roosevelt after the end of the Second World War.

I'm not writing this to justify what the preacher did, nor to justify the reaction, because I see both as gross acts of human stupidity.

But there is a relationship between the two incidents and for me at least, that relationship is perfectly clear. Both understandable, and both stupid at the same time.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:47:36 AM   
ArizonaBossMan


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The thing is... as the whole democrat party proves, you have the right in the country to be raving idiots with an opinion. That dumb-ass preacher did NOT kill those people in afghanistan. Sorry, NBCCBSCNNABCNYTimes,etc... The dumb-ass ragheads in Afghan killed those people.

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:49:42 AM   
Aneirin


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Tweakabelle I feel you are quite correct for in my mind there is no difference between Jones and the mad mullahs we so often denigrate. Politics enabled by belief, one unconfirmed influencing reality, something wrong there.

But is it a case of the location of the mad mouth defines whether the mad mouth's actions are accepted or not ?

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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:50:04 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ArizonaBossMan

The thing is... as the whole democrat party proves, you have the right in the country to be raving idiots with an opinion. That dumb-ass preacher did NOT kill those people in afghanistan. Sorry, NBCCBSCNNABCNYTimes,etc... The dumb-ass ragheads in Afghan killed those people.


That's Afghanistan, not Afghan. But I suppose I shouldn't expect intelligence from someone who uses words like "raghead" should I?


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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:51:57 AM   
JstAnotherSub


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle


quote:

ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub

[
I agree the preacher is nuts, but, to me, his actions and that of the folks who savagely murdered innocents, are apples and oranges.  No, apples and F-14's.  Or apples and corns on the big toes of retired nurses.

Far far apart-lol.

I addressed this point earlier in the thread - post #29 if you haven't read it. There are quite a number of similarities between Jones' behaviour and that of the mullahs who whipped the peasants to a frenzy. Please check it out.


Burning books, murdering innocents.

Find all the similarities you want to, there is still one obvious huge difference.

One action caused paper to burn, the other caused people to die.





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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:52:14 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Tweakabelle I feel you are quite correct for in my mind there is no difference between Jones and the mad mullahs we so often denigrate. Politics enabled by belief, one unconfirmed influencing reality, something wrong there.

But is it a case of the location of the mad mouth defines whether the mad mouth's actions are accepted or not ?


So you don't see any difference between killing a person and burning a book? If I came into your house and said I was going to either kill you or burn one of the books on your shelf, you wouldn't see a difference in that either?


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RE: I hope that dumbass preacher in fl is proud of himself - 4/3/2011 6:53:30 AM   
tweakabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?


First you would have to prove that he really believed anyone would be killed.

Maybe he thought that others were exaggerating and that no one would really start killing innocents over a book being burned. Personally, I have a hard time with the concept myself. It's a book, not a person.


Your General Petreaus advised him explicitly he was putting the lives of American troops at risk.* Obama, La Clinton, and no doubt many others urged him to consider the consequences of his actions.

Considering the furore his first attempt at burning Korans sparked, isn't your suggestion just a tad naive?




* http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Afghanistan/burn-quran-day-sparks-protests-afghanistan-petraeus-endanger/story?id=11574449

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