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ORIGINAL: stellauk

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

Not really.

Why would you bother to present a perspective that was not yours?

Are you that altruistic?

Let's try multiple choice, shall we?

A. Playing dumb.

B. Being dumb.

C. Just visiting the planet.

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There's a reason for this. When you stifle human individuality and enforce conformity among a group of people you encourage people to believe that the majority is always right and also hostility towards those who don't fit in with the norm.

This is true if you were born and raised in a one horse town in the middle of Nebraska, in the middle of a massive land mass composed of other states which is the United States. Head anywhere out of Nebraska in any direction and you will come to other states with one horse towns which are pretty much the same as Nebraska.

This is also true if you were circumcized as a child, were conditioned to pray five times a day east towards Mecca, believing in your Muslim brotherhood and that Muhammad is the one and only true prophet and Allah is the one and only true God.

We have the same thing here in the UK. Take somewhere as Yorkshire, for example. Yorkshire on a map is five different counties - West Yorkshire, North Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Cleveland and Humberside, but in people's heads it's still Yorkshire, there is still that same parochialism, the same as what you find in Northern Ireland, in Scotland, in Wales, the same as what you find anywhere else.

This is why when that person moves from the one horse town in Nebraska to somewhere like New York, like someone from Yorkshire moving to London, they feel alone and isolated among all the diversity, the differences in people's faces, they feel alienated, and this explains why some of them join cults and other subcultures.

This is why we also have the Taliban in the first place. When you are conditioned to believe that the West in all its cultural superiority is immoral, indecent, when you feel it goes against the fundamental teachings of Islam you start to feel defensive and start wanting to do something about it.

It's the exact same logic and thinking as the reaction to 9/11 and the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center, which most Americans perceived to be an attack on Americans, their way of life, their culture, their identity and this is what started the whole war on terrorism.

This is why it's such a problem for Americans right now. The Internet is working against what we believe to be American culture, and that what was once internal, existing only within the borders of the United States, is transcending the borders simply through being online and accessible to people from all over the world - take this message board for example. It's breaking down that cultural imperialism the Americans once had, and showing American society and culture in its true light.

Thing is, if you are a public person, such as a preacher, a politician, just like an actor or a singer, you have a greater influence on society and culture and this carries with it a moral responsibility not shared with the rest of society. This is because you are representative. You also share some of the responsibility of how people respond and react to what you say, what you do, and how you express yourself in a public capacity.

Ever wondered why it is illegal to burn a national flag? Or to destroy a banknote? It's not just the burning of the cloth or the paper which makes it an issue, but the destruction of what it symbolizes. The Holy Koran, like the Holy Bible, isn't just a book, it's a book which carries a lot of symbolism and a lot of meaning for many people.

It's no different to an angry mob of Islamic fundamentalists gathered in a town square burning the American flag, which can be perceived to be an offensive, hostile act towards all Americans. Now imagine that the United States is an occupied terrority occupied by Islamic soldiers, let's say the Taliban as an example. Now let's say for example Americans everywhere are under the control of the Taliban, and a mullah decides to burn the Stars and Stripes in a mosque in downtown Kabul. Would that not cause offense among Americans and provoke a demonstration?

This in itself explains that special UK-US relationship. Unlike the United States, which is somewhat geographically isolated, having Canada to the north and Mexico to the south and a large ocean east and west we are a relatively small group of islands off the coast of Europe. Our history, which is much longer, is filled with conflicts, both internally and externally, wars with Ireland, with France, with Russia, with every other European nation apart from Poland and Greece, and this also explains why we have diplomacy - our part of the bargain - down to a fine art. Imagine what would have happened had Churchill not been there together with Stalin and Roosevelt after the end of the Second World War.

I'm not writing this to justify what the preacher did, nor to justify the reaction, because I see both as gross acts of human stupidity.

But there is a relationship between the two incidents and for me at least, that relationship is perfectly clear. Both understandable, and both stupid at the same time.

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


Burning books, murdering innocents.

Find all the similarities you want to, there is still one obvious huge difference.

One action caused paper to burn, the other caused people to die.

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, I'm arguing that free speech carries a certain degree of responsibility, and it's hard to imagine the attention seeking cretin not having any inkling that something like this might be a result, however stupid he is. Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy. It isn't like there aren't any precedents, after all.

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ORIGINAL: thishereboi

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ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Tweakabelle I feel you are quite correct for in my mind there is no difference between Jones and the mad mullahs we so often denigrate. Politics enabled by belief, one unconfirmed influencing reality, something wrong there.

But is it a case of the location of the mad mouth defines whether the mad mouth's actions are accepted or not ?

So you don't see any difference between killing a person and burning a book? If I came into your house and said I was going to either kill you or burn one of the books on your shelf, you wouldn't see a difference in that either?

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: JstAnotherSub


Burning books, murdering innocents.

Find all the similarities you want to, there is still one obvious huge difference.

One action caused paper to burn, the other caused people to die.

You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: Moonhead

No, I'm arguing that free speech carries a certain degree of responsibility, and it's hard to imagine the attention seeking cretin not having any inkling that something like this might be a result, however stupid he is. Given the enthusiasm the shitheads have for going nuts and murdering people, he'd have to be pretty stupid not to see that coming if he gave them yet another excuse for a frenzy. It isn't like there aren't any precedents, after all.

So, in essence your argument is that we have to be careful of what we say and do so we don't make crazy people do crazy things.

Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.

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ORIGINAL: Aneirin


I see the difference between killing a person and burning a book is different in the normal sense, but what jones did was act on his own against more qualified advice and undoubtedly put lives at risk through his intentional actions of burning a book full of symbolism that is representative of a religious people his own country just happened to be at war with.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?

That is such a defeatist position.

Those lives were taken by radicals who believe they have the right to respond violently against any perceived slight.

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Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: tweakabelle



You aren't seriously suggesting the two events aren't connected are you?

If Jones hadn't set match to paper, there would have been no deaths.

The events might not be connected in ways we find defensible or rational, but the connection was most certainly predictable and known to Jones prior to him burning the book and setting whole ugly chain of events into motion.

So again:
What sane person would choose to burn a book knowing that their actions jeopardised the lives of an unknown number of innocent people?

That is such a defeatist position.

Those lives were taken by radicals who believe they have the right to respond violently against any perceived slight.

My "defeatist" position is that of Gen Petreaus, commander of US forces in Afghanistan. He might have another perspective on that adjective.

I see Jones' actions - cynically manipulating media for his own ends that have nothing to do with religion - and those of the mullahs as essentially two of a kind.

I doubt that the people who did the actual killing were 'radicals'. The Taliban and AL Quada have had no presence in the Mazar region historically. The killings were probably carried out by illiterate peasants living in 13th century conditions, with no experience or understanding of the world outside their immediate experience, whipped into a frenzy by their mullahs fire and brimstone sermons.

They were used cynically by the mullahs for their own political ends in ways that mirror Jones' cynical behaviour pretty precisely. Had Jones and the mullahs swapped places, the events would probably have been identical to those that actually transpired.

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I doubt that the people who did the actual killing were 'radicals'.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.

That is exactly what it means, and not just as far as burning Korans.

The further point is that any form of appeasement leads to escalating demands (which is why negotiating with terrorists is such a bad idea). Rewarding bad behavior begets bad bad bad behavior.

I have suggested on talk radio a somewhat different approach: hold nationwide Koran burnings every time there is an honor killing in this country, a beheading of an American anywhere, etc.

Of course, I think Americans should wear t-shirts that say: "Mohammed was a Pedophile", and "Islam: Hate Group" and "Jihad: towelhead for "Shoot me quick. And often". Then again, I don't like these people and would not mind seeing the US as an Islam-free zone.

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ORIGINAL: truckinslave

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Which, by extension, means we are allowing the crazy people to control us.

That is exactly what it means, and not just as far as burning Korans.

The further point is that any form of appeasement leads to escalating demands (which is why negotiating with terrorists is such a bad idea). Rewarding bad behavior begets bad bad bad behavior.

I have suggested on talk radio a somewhat different approach: hold nationwide Koran burnings every time there is an honor killing in this country, a beheading of an American anywhere, etc.

Of course, I think Americans should wear t-shirts that say: "Mohammed was a Pedophile", and "Islam: Hate Group" and "Jihad: towelhead for "Shoot me quick. And often". Then again, I don't like these people and would not mind seeing the US as an Islam-free zone.

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ORIGINAL: Lucylastic

Why am I only seeing the parallels , we have at least three posters in this one thread that would be members of the christian al-queda/taliban who would take up arms to protect their way of life from the eeeebil christians, I mean mooozlems.
self righteous anger...hate fear and ignorance on both sides, how wonderful
That jerk jones is not innocent.. taunting your "enemy", and knowing he wont be taking any  of the fallout earns him a special kind of hell.

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ORIGINAL: rulemylife

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ORIGINAL: Aneirin


I see the difference between killing a person and burning a book is different in the normal sense, but what jones did was act on his own against more qualified advice and undoubtedly put lives at risk through his intentional actions of burning a book full of symbolism that is representative of a religious people his own country just happened to be at war with.

Let me ask you something.

If it was a Bible that was burned would we be seeing the same sort of violence?