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RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 10:55:26 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If you don't like the countries rules and laws, stay the hell out, it's really that simple.

well said

quote:

So let me get this straight.

If we visit a muslim country we have to conform to their culture.

But if a muslim visits a western country we still have to conform to their culture?

Apparently, thats what some folks consider to be totally ok and normal

It's a really strange experience when you watch another human being willfully distort reality at the expense of someone else in order to be heard: human beings have a responsibility to be fair; otherwise, the bored and the out-and-out lunatics mob up and intimidate minorities.

When was the last time you went to a mosque? Do you pray 5 times a day? Are you absolutely sure you are being forced to conform to 'their' culture?

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Post #: 141

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 11:20:44 AM

hlen5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

Attempting to be "liberal" when it potentially interferes with international security isn't being liberal, it's being stupid.

I can agree to disagree with you. I don't feel the need to call you names to do it, either.

ETA: And I didn't even add your other insulting remark.

< Message edited by hlen5 -- 4/15/2011 11:28:39 AM >

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Post #: 142

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 11:43:22 AM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady
If you don't like the countries rules and laws, stay the hell out, it's really that simple.

well said

quote:

So let me get this straight.

If we visit a muslim country we have to conform to their culture.

But if a muslim visits a western country we still have to conform to their culture?

Apparently, thats what some folks consider to be totally ok and normal

It's a really strange experience when you watch another human being willfully distort reality at the expense of someone else in order to be heard: human beings have a responsibility to be fair; otherwise, the bored and the out-and-out lunatics mob up and intimidate minorities.

When was the last time you went to a mosque? Do you pray 5 times a day? Are you absolutely sure you are being forced to conform to 'their' culture?

Last time I went to mosque was in 2002

in Heidelberg

Before you get out a map, Heidelberg is in Germany, not in the UK

And as mentioned before I am not into church, so why should I then pray 5 times a day? I can't say that I had anything against other peopls praying and whatever else they are doing, however I do care when faces are hidden in a society where quite frankly it isn't the norm. I do believe in countries having their individual culture and that way making the earth an interesting place instead of thw whole planet becoming the same mess wherever you are due to cultures and traditions not being continued anymore.

I do have no problem with people doing at home how they wish, however when it appears that security checks are not being carried out properly due to people wearing a veil, then I do have a problem with it. The veil isnt part of the Koran as mentioned before many times, so quite frankly there is no need to allow to wear it in public. Would we agree on it when people would start running around on the streets with tights and other masks on top of their face on a regular basis, which sometimes have been used during robberies? Somehow I doubt. So quite frankly I don't see the need for a veil in a public place over here.

Am I sure about people being forced to conform to their culture? Where I am from we have many people from turkey and afghanstan as well as folks who lived there for a while from the western society, and believe it or not we even do communicate with each other

back home as well as over here

Quite frankly its neither rocket science nor too much to expect to follow basic rules in other countries. Sometimes people do live abroad and might disagree to rules within the country they reside for a while and quite frankly the choice is there to either accept the rules from a country and stay there or not to put up with it and move on. Not rocket science.

But hey, why don't you go over there and simply try it out yourself

BBC might pay you for your experiences over there and name the show "lemme try to truly live there as a british citizen the way how I want to live"

< Message edited by Phoenixpower -- 4/15/2011 11:52:35 AM >

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Post #: 143

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 11:52:50 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

BBC might pay you for your experiences over there and name the show "lemme try to truly live there as a british citizen the way how I want to live"

You're missing the point. I don't care about how Pakistan, or Afghanistan, or anywhere else treats British visitors. Couldn't care less.

What I am interested in is how we, as English men and women, treat visitors.

A case of managing your own affairs.

And, as I've said, English muslims live by our laws. They adapt to our laws. One of our laws is this: you can walk down the street wearing something round your head - it's not a crime.

Do you understand that English muslims are living according to English law and if they break the law they will be entertained at Her Majesty's pleasure?

We have a saying over here, one you may be familiar with as you live here: "In Europe they say you may walk on the grass; In England we say don't walk on the grass".

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Post #: 144

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 12:03:09 PM

Phoenixpower

Posts: 8098
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

BBC might pay you for your experiences over there and name the show "lemme try to truly live there as a british citizen the way how I want to live"

What I am interested in is how we, as English men and women, treat visitors.

Considering that a criminal man could escape with using a veil (to remain in that context) I have the impression that at times tolerance gets too far and that at times people might be too worried about being accused of daring to intervene in someones personal space too much if they would dare to check if the person underneath is the person s/he claims to be. I know we strangely even agreed on that topic, that this is a different matter, but with people using the veil examples like that one give the impression that sometimes some people might be overly careful to dare to question who is underneath of it.

quote:

Do you understand that English muslims are living according to English law and if they break the law they will be entertained at Her Majesty's pleasure?

Nope, I did not know that the Majesty (Queen) is entertaining people who are breaking the law

quote:

We have a saying over here, one you may be familiar with as you live here: "In Europe they say you may walk on the grass; In England we say don't walk on the grass".

And nope, thats for a change a new one for me...so you are saying we aren't supposed to walk on grass over here?

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Post #: 145

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 12:41:31 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phoenixpower

And nope, thats for a change a new one for me...so you are saying we aren't supposed to walk on grass over here?

It means that providing you don't break the law then we don't care what you do; whereas in Europe you like to tell people what to do (lawor otherwise).

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 146

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 12:56:10 PM

geilematz

Posts: 86
Joined: 1/1/2011
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a bit about rules:
men are expected to cover their heads when they enter a synagogue
men are expected to uncover their heads when they enter a church
women are expected to cover shoulders (and breasts "of course") when they enter a Catholic church
women are expected to wear (at least) a scarf in Iran
women are expected not to wear a scarf when teaching in German schools
women and men are expected not to leave their underwear together on the same line for drying outside in some US states (forgot which ones...)

don't expect any logic or deeper meaning

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Post #: 147

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 1:08:39 PM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

It means that providing you don't break the law then we don't care what you do; whereas in Europe you like to tell people what to do (lawor otherwise).

That one is a keeper.

One to add as example of the dictionary term "hubris." Britain has had the same unchanging laws for decades, have they?

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/15/2011 1:11:32 PM >

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Post #: 148

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 1:52:11 PM

frazzle

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Joined: 6/20/2009
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For a first, i agree with Pheonix here.
The saying northern gent is referring to, ive never heard, and nor does it make any sense if youve lived in both the UK and other parts of Europe. (reminder, wether we like it or not the UK is not a continent)

As to Frances latest laws, i fully support them, and dont deem them as either bullying or racist.

If i chose to visit or live in a predominantly muslim country, i would be expected to conduct myself, in accordance with their customs and laws. its about time they gave non muslim countries the same respect,instead of expecting us to conform to what they want.

As other have said the Burka isnt religious dress, its a choice, usually made by the male members of the family, and rarely for good reason.

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Post #: 149

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 4:50:43 PM

Aneirin

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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

If rules of dress don't exist at point of entry, how can they be made after the fact. Does any country European or American specify what mode of dress a person may wear at point of entry? The Americans on here, do you know of any laws prohibiting certain modes of dress in your country as a requirement for an immigrant or indeed a visitor ?

If not why the palaver ?

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Post #: 150

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 8:57:38 PM

kdsub

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If you don't care about anywhere else...why do you care about France.

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Post #: 151

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 9:04:32 PM

LafayetteLady

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From: Northern New Jersey
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~FAST REPLY~

For those insulted by being told that their misguided ideas are stupid, no apologies. A spade is a spade. The idea that this a "women's" issue was, and continues to exist only of your own making.

The concept of posting signs about what we expect entering our country....I guess we should include on those signs that women can't be stoned, children can't be beaten senseless by their parents and the women can not have their genitals mutilated. After all, these are things that are legal in some countries but will get you arrested in most western ones.

NO, as humans we don't have an obligation to be "fair." That is simply your personal view. Diplomatic societies have an obligation to create order, by way of law, that are more beneficial than harmful. Nothing is "fair" to everyone in a society, it is "most fair." In other words, someone, typically a small number of people are going to find the law not fair to them. Living in your own little world doesn't change that. If you seriously want to affect change, become an activist, work to change what you don't like. Don't simply spout your views as though you speak for your whole nation.

As for how often I pray? Too many times a day, and it doesn't require I do it in a religious building or get on my knees. Go figure. As for going into a mosque, as a female, I'm not exactly welcome. But that's ok, as a non-muslim, I don't feel a need to force my way into their house of worship.

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Post #: 152

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 9:17:28 PM

hlen5

Posts: 5890
Joined: 3/2/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady

~FAST REPLY~

...........For those insulted by being told that their misguided ideas are stupid, no apologies. A spade is a spade. The idea that this a "women's" issue was, and continues to exist only of your own making.

Cut the passive-aggressive shit. Where the hell did you get the idea that I said this was a "woman's issue"? I wasn't referring to your xenophobic postings as much as I was to your personal rudeness. Your profile name is obviously a misnomer.

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Post #: 153

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 9:33:37 PM

LafayetteLady

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The argument has continued to be presented as these WOMEN having the right to express their culture, and how the concept that France is trying to "liberate" these poor women from oppression.

Yep, I applaud France for taking a stand, just as I applaud the US states who have enacted laws about speaking, reading and writing english be required for driver's licenses no longer offering information in spanish.

Obviously you and I have different definitions for the term "lady." My definition doesn't exclude telling people I believe they are wrong and it especially includes reminding alleged feminists how they are failing to look at the big picture.

Obviously my comments calling your IDEAS stupid insulted you. Sad to report you stooping to attack my character didn't bother me at all. I learned along time ago to weigh the insult based on the one making it.

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Post #: 154

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 9:49:43 PM

hlen5

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Your first sentence contradicts itself.

One can argue one's opinion without resulting in insults to do so. I gave you courtesy in spite of my differing opinion.

I couldn't agree more that we obviously have different definitions on the term lady. I'm done with you.

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Post #: 155

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 11:37:32 PM

Edwynn

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You are so much not understanding the issue here.

But I have no wish to increase an already full steam ahead anger already in play. I wish that I could have done a better job earlier.

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Post #: 156

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/15/2011 11:58:19 PM

hlen5

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I'm quite capable of discussing the issues Edwynn. What do you think I'm not getting?

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Post #: 157

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/16/2011 12:05:34 AM

kissheels

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Joined: 3/8/2011
From: Inside Your Mind
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quote:

ORIGINAL: geilematz

a bit about rules:
men are expected to cover their heads when they enter a synagogue
men are expected to uncover their heads when they enter a church
women are expected to cover shoulders (and breasts "of course") when they enter a Catholic church
women are expected to wear (at least) a scarf in Iran
women are expected not to wear a scarf when teaching in German schools
women and men are expected not to leave their underwear together on the same line for drying outside in some US states (forgot which ones...)

don't expect any logic or deeper meaning

quote:

women and men are expected not to leave their underwear together on the same line for drying outside in some US states

Are You serious???????

< Message edited by kissheels -- 4/16/2011 12:06:13 AM >

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Post #: 158

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/16/2011 12:06:54 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: frazzle

The saying northern gent is referring to, ive never heard, and nor does it make any sense if youve lived in both the UK and other parts of Europe. (reminder, wether we like it or not the UK is not a continent)

It may not make sense to you, granted.

But to anyone who understands the not so subtle differences in political philosophy, which influences our establishment, our laws and the way we live, it is a point that makes itself.

In the English camp, you have the analytical school: Moore, Russell, Wittgenstein.

In the continental camp, you have a belief that philosophy and politics cannot be separated from its historical background and theories have been developed on the contintent such as existentialism, structuralism and post structuralism: Heidegger, Focault, Sartre.

A basic understanding of these differences in thought will go a long way to helping you understand why the French state has taken this action and why it is not a realisitic possibility in England.

Edited to add: we may be European to an extent, but the fact that we're an island has had a massive influence on the way we think. Were we joined to the continent we would think like them; we have not lived for centuries with the threat of armies marching over our borders.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/16/2011 12:26:07 AM >

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Post #: 159

RE: France bans face covering veil (burqa) - 4/16/2011 12:22:34 AM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

I'm quite capable of discussing the issues Edwynn. What do you think I'm not getting?

I am in status of pardon if I accuse you falsely. In any case not meant as accusation of incapacity on your part. There is the possibility that the accusation of xenophobia from yourself to another person might have rankled me just a bit.

In any case, what was being conveyed from such person is that when you go from home country to a far away country, the sensibilities of said far away country are taken into consideration, at least by those with an inherent consideration for others to begin with.

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Post #: 160

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