RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (Full Version)

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HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 1:23:25 PM)

yeah, i didn't address that part. mea culpa.
its sunny and warm, so the girls and i are going out to play, when i get back i promise to correct my oversight.

hannah lynn



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 4:34:59 PM)

Hannah's not feeling well at the moment, so I finally get a chance at the keyboard!

I have been following along on this thread as Hannah was posting.I think they are right, if a person has the right to control their own body, then they have the right to control it. I don't think we do have that right.

The whole idea started with the idea that a woman has the right to control her own body, an argument used in the abortion issue. I don't think she does. She has the right to control her reproductive life.

I will explain my reasoning. By doing drugs to any serious degree, you are making it likely that you will end up needing medical attention, which we all pay for. Since I have to pay to fix you, I should have the ability to save my money by preventing you from doing the damage in the first place.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I don't do drugs. I think tobacco, alcohol, and drugs should be either banned, or a user should have to agree to release the rest of us from the duty to pay for their medical care caused by using.

So to sum up: You don't have an absolute right to control your own body because society as a whole has a responsibility to fix you, so it has the right to limit the damage you do to yourself.

That's my take on it at least.

Heather



ThatDamnedPanda -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 4:51:14 PM)

You guys are gonna be fun! Welcome!



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 5:46:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

Hannah's not feeling well at the moment, so I finally get a chance at the keyboard!

I have been following along on this thread as Hannah was posting.I think they are right, if a person has the right to control their own body, then they have the right to control it. I don't think we do have that right.

The whole idea started with the idea that a woman has the right to control her own body, an argument used in the abortion issue. I don't think she does. She has the right to control her reproductive life.

I will explain my reasoning. By doing drugs to any serious degree, you are making it likely that you will end up needing medical attention, which we all pay for. Since I have to pay to fix you, I should have the ability to save my money by preventing you from doing the damage in the first place.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I don't do drugs. I think tobacco, alcohol, and drugs should be either banned, or a user should have to agree to release the rest of us from the duty to pay for their medical care caused by using.

So to sum up: You don't have an absolute right to control your own body because society as a whole has a responsibility to fix you, so it has the right to limit the damage you do to yourself.

That's my take on it at least.

Heather

Well quite frankly in an ideal Utopian world....I would happen to agree with Hannah,Impera,Arpig and Panda...but like you(if I might make that assumption) I look at things from the perspective of a pragmatist...that is,whether or not we have accepted the invitation,in our modern world we/you are part of a larger society.So no matter ones protestations of being a complete self sufficient individual one both uses and depends on the greater society.That use/dependence comes with a price tag...the loss of any pretension of absolute autonomy.So sooner or later the community at large is likely to wind up in the position where it's resources must be expended due to your decisions...and if not you it will be someone else...the point remains that society must make allowances for those eventualities.....which of course leads to a prudent society installing speed brakes on certain behaviors.The individual need not like those speed brakes,might even expend great energies opposing those brakes...but that individual,if he/she is sane,better acknowledge and,at times,heed those speed bumps.

As an aside to a certain poster(Hannah) who claimed there was no reason or logic on this side of the fence ....though you no doubt disagree with the above....least you can do is admit there is both reason ...and some logic contained therein [:D]



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 5:50:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You guys are gonna be fun! Welcome!
Ain't that the truth...when the thread first appeared I just looked at it and assumed someone was just spoiling for a fight,absent an actual argument or position.....I couldn't have been more off the mark.They are fun....and this thread is a nice departure from the usual left/right dynamic that colors most of what we do here.
Welcome indeed !!!!!!!



Aynne88 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 5:53:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

Hannah's not feeling well at the moment, so I finally get a chance at the keyboard!

I have been following along on this thread as Hannah was posting.I think they are right, if a person has the right to control their own body, then they have the right to control it. I don't think we do have that right.

The whole idea started with the idea that a woman has the right to control her own body, an argument used in the abortion issue. I don't think she does. She has the right to control her reproductive life.

I will explain my reasoning. By doing drugs to any serious degree, you are making it likely that you will end up needing medical attention, which we all pay for. Since I have to pay to fix you, I should have the ability to save my money by preventing you from doing the damage in the first place.

I don't drink, I don't smoke, and I don't do drugs. I think tobacco, alcohol, and drugs should be either banned, or a user should have to agree to release the rest of us from the duty to pay for their medical care caused by using.

So to sum up: You don't have an absolute right to control your own body because society as a whole has a responsibility to fix you, so it has the right to limit the damage you do to yourself.

That's my take on it at least.

Heather



We are not hanging out anytime soon. [;)].





tazzygirl -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 5:56:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You guys are gonna be fun! Welcome!
Ain't that the truth...when the thread first appeared I just looked at it and assumed someone was just spoiling for a fight,absent an actual argument or position.....I couldn't have been more off the mark.They are fun....and this thread is a nice departure from the usual left/right dynamic that colors most of what we do here.
Welcome indeed !!!!!!!



Im saving this post, mike. [;)]



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 5:58:47 PM)

Rethink that Aynne...from where I sit and after 21 pages they certainly seem like folks I would enjoy being around...I'm sure we can convince her to give you a waiver.....on the waiver.[:D]



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:20:39 PM)

quote:

We are not hanging out anytime soon. .
that's ok aynne88, i disagree with her on all 3 points. she'll be a good girl and do what she's told: pour our drinks, hand you the roach clip, and light our cigarettes. [;)]

hannah lynn



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:22:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: ThatDamnedPanda

You guys are gonna be fun! Welcome!
Ain't that the truth...when the thread first appeared I just looked at it and assumed someone was just spoiling for a fight,absent an actual argument or position.....I couldn't have been more off the mark.They are fun....and this thread is a nice departure from the usual left/right dynamic that colors most of what we do here.
Welcome indeed !!!!!!!



Im saving this post, mike. [;)]

To what end ?......Did I just get myself in trouble with my favorite Pennsylvanian ?



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:35:56 PM)

quote:

As an aside to a certain poster(Hannah) who claimed there was no reason or logic on this side of the fence
i will concede that many of the points raised by those on your side do indeed have some reason, and indeed their own internal logic. but as i have said repeatedly, they are irrelevant points. you all (except heather...she might be looking for a spanking[;)]) concede the basic premise that a person has the right to control their own life and body...up to a point. then you list all sorts of very valid reasons why doing drugs can be bad, but again, those are not the direct result of taking the drug, they are the result of the subsequent actions of the person taking the drug.

now, for the purposes of this part, i am going to pretend i accept that the state/society does have actual rights over the individual. if that is the case, then those actions are subject to repercussions, to restricting by the state. but if a person shoots up and drifts into nirvana watching family guy reruns, how does his heroin use affect you? it doesn't. and thus is none of your business. if i smoke a bunch of crack and then jump in my car, the crack smoking is equally none of your affair. the driving afterwards is.

hannah lynn



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:48:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

As an aside to a certain poster(Hannah) who claimed there was no reason or logic on this side of the fence
i will concede that many of the points raised by those on your side do indeed have some reason, and indeed their own internal logic. but as i have said repeatedly, they are irrelevant points. you all (except heather...she might be looking for a spanking[;)]) concede the basic premise that a person has the right to control their own life and body...up to a point. then you list all sorts of very valid reasons why doing drugs can be bad, but again, those are not the direct result of taking the drug, they are the result of the subsequent actions of the person taking the drug.

now, for the purposes of this part, i am going to pretend i accept that the state/society does have actual rights over the individual. if that is the case, then those actions are subject to repercussions, to restricting by the state. but if a person shoots up and drifts into nirvana watching family guy reruns, how does his heroin use affect you? it doesn't. and thus is none of your business. if i smoke a bunch of crack and then jump in my car, the crack smoking is equally none of your affair. the driving afterwards is.

hannah lynn

Okay,as far as you take it with your example all is good...but again I am a pragmatist...and I know that man watching family guy reruns did not shoot up in a vacuum.His use supports a larger problem,his use will not in any way shape or form be restricted to solely those times when TBS runs a Family Guy marathon...so as a pragmatist and incidentally a realist I am back to that societal cost that sooner or later society must pay.Sooner or later Joe shoot,em up...needs to leave that comfortable chair....needs to meet the seller...needs to support the habit,or if he is lucky enough not to go in a dreamy high very quickly...needs a methadone program.
The bill sooner or later comes due....the butcher always demands his payment...and no matter the scenario you construct sooner or later society must enter the picture,this is unavoidable simply as a product of our modern world.
Whether or not you buy this...I happen to prefer your clean model....but the world is anything but clean...as the bumper sticker proclaims...."shit happens"



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:50:05 PM)

quote:

that is,whether or not we have accepted the invitation,in our modern world we/you are part of a larger society.
I agree with you. That's pretty much how I see it.

I'm not going to get very involved in this argument, because I've said my bit, and it honestly doesn't really matter that much to me. Most of it is a little over my head anyway.

I've heard Hannah's social/political views more than a few times[8|]. I love her with all my heart, but she's fucking weird, I'll be the first to admit that. But given the life she's led, it makes sense, and she does do her best to live by her beliefs, and that I respect; a LOT.

Now I'm going to go slip a phonebook down the back of my pants and leave this to all of you.

Heather



gungadin09 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:54:00 PM)

i would like to discuss the fact that no "right" is absolute, including a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body. (Or a man's right to sovereignty over his, for that matter.) Which, if i understand correctly, is pretty much what the Supreme Court decided in Roe vs. Wade. That a woman's right to do what she wants with what is growing in her uterus *ends* when what is growing in her uterus is declared by law to be a person, with it's own rights.

We could discuss the fact that pro-choice advocates have never argued that a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her own body (at least, i have never heard them do so); only that she has the right to do what she wants with what is in her reproductive system prior to the 20th week of gestation, which is a very different thing than saying she has the unfettered right to do absolutely anything she wants with her own body.

If we had time we could also discuss the fact that fanatics from both sides of the abortion question distort the facts and exaggerate their opponent's claims in a manner so tasteless and self serving that it leaves a listener disgusted and fed up with the whole political process.

And, no, i don't believe that crack should be legal. The law got it right. Crack, drunk driving, parashooting off city buildings, and suicide are all illegal for a good reason. There are certain people who need to be protected from themselves, and certain consequences that society needs to be protected from.

pam



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 6:55:20 PM)

quote:

The bill sooner or later comes due....the butcher always demands his payment
i've said it before, there is no need for anybody to do anything...let the junkies die. fuck em. they want it, let them have it. its their choice. its what they want out of life. if they don't want it, then they shouldn't have started using, and if they decide too late that they don't want it, then they can quit.

hannah lynn



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:04:25 PM)

a reasoned post, gungadin09. but you are discussing the present legal state in one country. that is not really at issue, otherwise we would get totally bogged down in the details of how the actual laws differ from one country to another.

i assert that all rights are by definition absolute, if not, they are merely privileges. further, the only entity that has any rights is the individual, and that the primary right of the individual is the right to live their life as they please, to do what they want with their life and by extension their body.

on that basis, any laws that restrict me from doing what i want with my body, or ingesting what i want, is morally void. it is unnatural.

hannah lynn



tazzygirl -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:41:14 PM)

quote:

To what end ?......Did I just get myself in trouble with my favorite Pennsylvanian ?


Why would you believe you are in trouble, mike?



Aynne88 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:42:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

We are not hanging out anytime soon. .
that's ok aynne88, i disagree with her on all 3 points. she'll be a good girl and do what she's told: pour our drinks, hand you the roach clip, and light our cigarettes. [;)]

hannah lynn



lol...well close. I don't smoke pot, but I will take a martini, up, dry and a good cigar. [;)]. Oh and for god sake, it was a stressful day, pass me a valium puh-leeze.

*I'm kind of like Karen on Will and Grace, big hair and all [:D]~  Minus the dead wealthy hubby of course, damn it!



tazzygirl -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:43:21 PM)

quote:

i would like to discuss the fact that no "right" is absolute, including a woman's right to sovereignty over her own body. (Or a man's right to sovereignty over his, for that matter.) Which, if i understand correctly, is pretty much what the Supreme Court decided in Roe vs. Wade. That a woman's right to do what she wants with what is growing in her uterus *ends* when what is growing in her uterus is declared by law to be a person, with it's own rights.

We could discuss the fact that pro-choice advocates have never argued that a woman has the right to do whatever she wants with her own body (at least, i have never heard them do so); only that she has the right to do what she wants with what is in her reproductive system prior to the 20th week of gestation, which is a very different thing than saying she has the unfettered right to do absolutely anything she wants with her own body.


Well written, pam.



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:48:24 PM)

quote:

lol...well close. I don't smoke pot, but I will take a martini, up, dry and a good cigar. . Oh and for god sake, it was a stressful day, pass me a valium puh-leeze.
Yes Ma'am, will that be with an olive or an onion? Of course, Ma'am, just give me a moment to see what's in the medicine cabinet.

Heather



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