RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (Full Version)

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slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:49:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

The bill sooner or later comes due....the butcher always demands his payment
i've said it before, there is no need for anybody to do anything...let the junkies die. fuck em. they want it, let them have it. its their choice. its what they want out of life. if they don't want it, then they shouldn't have started using, and if they decide too late that they don't want it, then they can quit.

hannah lynn

You completely disregarded the other segment of that post....he needs to buy that shot...which no matter how harshly we draw the line where he pays the price of his own decisions...he is still part of a larger problem.He supports his pusher...who supports his pusher....and on and on. He is a linchpin in a chain of criminality...one that pays no heed at all to the niceties of society,one that cares not how the customer acquired the purchase price nor whether or not this particular customer likes "Family Guy".....in short it just doesn't work.Should it work? In a perfect model ? Yes to both...but we reside in an imperfect world,populated by imperfect people who are co-dependent on each other ,as a result of this society has a need for certain constructs...that can not be done without....though the result of doing so would in theory be utopian....we just don't get to live "in theory".



gungadin09 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 7:57:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
...on that basis, any laws that restrict me from doing what i want with my body, or ingesting what i want, is morally void. it is unnatural.


...and i would probably agree with you if the consequences for making that choice were confined to you and you alone. i would say that any person mentally fit to consent to a risky activity has the right to participate in that activity, provided that the only harm that could possibly come from it would fall directly on themselves... but that isn't always the case, is it?

Crack is highly addicting, and being addicted to crack, (or even just doing crack) carries a risk that is *not* born solely by the one person who has *consented* to take that risk. The risk is also born by society, which is why the law, in prohibiting crack, weighs the rights of society against the rights of the individual. (The same reasoning applies to drunk drivers.) If you don't accept the idea that "society" has rights, then try seeing "society" as just a group of individuals who all have their own rights. And in this case, one of those rights might be, not being operated on by a surgeon who has a crack addiction, and is therefore less able to do their job than a surgeon who is not addicted to crack.

i think you'll find that the decision to do crack doesn't always just affect *one* person's body, what *one* person wants to do with their life. It's a decision that may affect innocent bystanders, which is why the law mediates the rights of one individual against the rights of all the rest. If you want to call those rights "priveledges" instead, because they are not absolute, i'm fine with that. i don't think it makes much difference what you call them. The point is, they exist.

pam



gungadin09 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:02:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Well written, pam.


Aw, thanks, tazzy.

pam



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:03:36 PM)

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He is a linchpin in a chain of criminality
only if drugs are illegal.
quote:

one that pays no heed at all to the niceties of society
society and its niceties are, as previously stated, irrelevant. society is an artificial construct with no rights whatsoever. it has no moral authority. it posses coercive power, but that's it.
quote:

Should it work? In a perfect model ? Yes to both...
thank you. that is what i was waiting to hear [:)] the rest is unimportant. of course society will use its power to try restrict my freedom, a free society is an oxymoron. the instant you allow an imaginary social construct to dictate to you, you cease to be free.
quote:

but we reside in an imperfect world,populated by imperfect people who are co-dependent on each other
if they require other people to survive then they really have no business surviving. your survival is your affair, nobody else's. its certainly none of my business if you, or anybody else lives or dies. it may cause me great pain when they do, but it isn't my business, its theirs and theirs alone.
quote:

though the result of doing so would in theory be utopian....we just don't get to live "in theory".
why not? nobody's ever really tried it have they? how do you know it won't work?

hannah lynn



Aynne88 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:04:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

lol...well close. I don't smoke pot, but I will take a martini, up, dry and a good cigar. . Oh and for god sake, it was a stressful day, pass me a valium puh-leeze.
Yes Ma'am, will that be with an olive or an onion? Of course, Ma'am, just give me a moment to see what's in the medicine cabinet.

Heather



I dig you [;)]. Olive please and I'll take what you find in there, I like to guess the buzz. ;-)



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:11:11 PM)

thanks for the good reply :)
quote:


Crack is highly addicting, and being addicted to crack, (or even just doing crack) carries a risk that is *not* born solely by the one person who has *consented* to take that risk.
but they are. being addicted to crack, or anything else, has no affect on anybody but the addict.
quote:

The risk is also born by society, which is why the law, in prohibiting crack, weighs the rights of society against the rights of the individual.
there is no risk to society in a person doing crack or being addicted to crack.
quote:

then try seeing "society" as just a group of individuals who all have their own rights.
that is all society is. a group of individuals each with exactly the same rights. and just as i have no right to dictate to you in any way, none of those people do either. them functioning collectively gives them no further rights. the rights of individual trumps everything.
quote:

The point is, they exist.
if they are not absolute, they are imaginary. a right cannot be anything but supreme.

hannah lynn



thishereboi -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:15:48 PM)

quote:

I think tobacco, alcohol, and drugs should be either banned, or a user should have to agree to release the rest of us from the duty to pay for their medical care caused by using.


Well, at the moment, a big chunk of the taxes on cigarettes is going to health care. So I have no problem with the above, if you have no problem with cutting out that tax and finding the money else where. Deal?



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:17:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

lol...well close. I don't smoke pot, but I will take a martini, up, dry and a good cigar. . Oh and for god sake, it was a stressful day, pass me a valium puh-leeze.
Yes Ma'am, will that be with an olive or an onion? Of course, Ma'am, just give me a moment to see what's in the medicine cabinet.

Heather



I dig you [;)]. Olive please and I'll take what you find in there, I like to guess the buzz. ;-)

When oh when will you learn to trust me...I believe I mentioned you just might like them [:D]



TheHeretic -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:31:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
society is an artificial construct with no rights whatsoever. it has no moral authority. it posses coercive power, but that's it.



I have to disagree with you here, Hannah, though I am also of the "legalize it all" school of thought. There is a grand "we" that comes into play. Under the right circumstances, it will possess a much higher moral authority than any individual, or collection of individuals.

On drugs laws, I think the Grand We have blown it in the worst of ways. How much more intrusive can you get than dictating about individual consciousness?


To the question of how the physical harm to the individual has a cost impact on society, legalization would do a lot to address that. Many of the physical ravages of methamphetamine, for example, are caused by the toxic impurities of the recipes that must be used. Pharmaceutical grade crystal methamphetamine isn't nearly as unhealthy as the shit that gets made with tractor starting fluid. Give heroin addicts clean needles, drugs free of impurities, and with known dosages, they can easily be sleeping in their own urine on the sidewalk for decades.




Aynne88 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:35:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

lol...well close. I don't smoke pot, but I will take a martini, up, dry and a good cigar. . Oh and for god sake, it was a stressful day, pass me a valium puh-leeze.
Yes Ma'am, will that be with an olive or an onion? Of course, Ma'am, just give me a moment to see what's in the medicine cabinet.

Heather



I dig you [;)]. Olive please and I'll take what you find in there, I like to guess the buzz. ;-)

When oh when will you learn to trust me...I believe I mentioned you just might like them [:D]



Damn it Mike you were right! She makes a decent martini too. Winning! lol...



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:38:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

He is a linchpin in a chain of criminality
only if drugs are illegal.
quote:

one that pays no heed at all to the niceties of society
society and its niceties are, as previously stated, irrelevant. society is an artificial construct with no rights whatsoever. it has no moral authority. it posses coercive power, but that's it.
quote:

Should it work? In a perfect model ? Yes to both...
thank you. that is what i was waiting to hear [:)] the rest is unimportant. of course society will use its power to try restrict my freedom, a free society is an oxymoron. the instant you allow an imaginary social construct to dictate to you, you cease to be free.
quote:

but we reside in an imperfect world,populated by imperfect people who are co-dependent on each other
if they require other people to survive then they really have no business surviving. your survival is your affair, nobody else's. its certainly none of my business if you, or anybody else lives or dies. it may cause me great pain when they do, but it isn't my business, its theirs and theirs alone.
quote:

though the result of doing so would in theory be utopian....we just don't get to live "in theory".
why not? nobody's ever really tried it have they? how do you know it won't work?

hannah lynn

But they are...back to seeing the world as it is,rather than as I would have it.


Society,while perhaps an artificial construct ,is in fact a reality...one chosen because it happens to be the only model man has devised that allows large groups of peoples to co-exist in something approaching harmony....do we all surrender just a little bit of what we refer to as freedoms to do so ...Yes we do.


The rest is not "unimportant"...it is in fact where the rubber meets the road...it is where practicality move a thing from the discussion of how something should be...to the discussion of where things need to be.


Because people are people...and they have their nature...and one can no more deny the nature of people than one can leap off a cliff.....and fly.

p.s. all these years here and I still don't know how to do those cool little quote boxes.....someone help me in a cm letter....please,



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:43:46 PM)

quote:

Society,while perhaps an artificial construct ,is in fact a reality...one chosen because it happens to be the only model man has devised that allows large groups of peoples to co-exist in something approaching harmony
harmony is not my goal. freedom is.

quote:

move a thing from the discussion of how something should be...to the discussion of where things need to be.
the two are the same. things need to be the way they should be. why on earth would you design a social model to be deliberately flawed?

quote:

Because people are people...and they have their nature...and one can noo more deny the nature of people that one can leap off a cliff.....and fly.
sorry, i just don't see what this has to do with anything. you lost me here.

hannah lynn



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:48:16 PM)

quote:

There is a grand "we" that comes into play. Under the right circumstances, it will possess a much higher moral authority than any individual, or collection of individuals.
sorry, i simply reject that hypothesis entirely. it has no internal logical consistency.

pray tell me why a bunch of you together somehow suddenly attain rights you do not have individually?

hannah lynn



slvemike4u -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 8:53:13 PM)

6 am flight,so my alarm goes off in little more than 4 hours...this has been fun...but I must leave it here ...Goodnight folks and enjoy.Next stop the Big Apple [:)]



TheHeretic -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 9:11:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

quote:

There is a grand "we" that comes into play. Under the right circumstances, it will possess a much higher moral authority than any individual, or collection of individuals.
sorry, i simply reject that hypothesis entirely. it has no internal logical consistency.

pray tell me why a bunch of you together somehow suddenly attain rights you do not have individually?

hannah lynn




One way to describe it, Hannah, and I'm not being a smartass, is to say it happens by magick. We take an accumulation of energy, focus it through a ritual, believe it will work, and "poof," the rapist is killed in cold blood, but everybody still gets a good night's sleep (or he gets locked in a tiny cell forever, in those places that cannot stomach justice).

I'll guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the legitimacy of the social compact.



HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 9:20:12 PM)

quote:

One way to describe it, Hannah, and I'm not being a smartass, is to say it happens by magick.
see the evolution & religion thread for my position on "magical" things.

quote:

We take an accumulation of energy, focus it through a ritual, believe it will work, and "poof," the rapist is killed in cold blood, but everybody still gets a good night's sleep (or he gets locked in a tiny cell forever, in those places that cannot stomach justice).
the death penalty is the ultimate obscenity. why would you want to kill a rapist? did he rape you? if not, its none of your affair.

quote:

I'll guess we are just going to have to agree to disagree on the legitimacy of the social compact.
yes, i guess so.

hannah lynn



TheHeretic -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 9:41:37 PM)

Feel free to choose your own metaphor that fits the process then. I'm sure there is a proper sociological term as well.






HannahLynHeather -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 9:54:24 PM)

probably [:D]

those are also touchy subjects to me. but that is fodder for some future thread.

hannah lynn





gungadin09 -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 10:04:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
quote:

then try seeing "society" as just a group of individuals who all have their own rights.

that is all society is. a group of individuals each with exactly the same rights. and just as i have no right to dictate to you in any way, none of those people do either. them functioning collectively gives them no further rights. the rights of individual trumps everything.


i'd be suprised if you really believed that no one has the right to dictate to me in any way. For example:

i have the right to drink alcohol. i did not have that right when i was 5.
i have the right to drive a car. i did not have that right before i obtained a liscence.
i have the right to have sex. i do not have the right to force someone to have sex with me.
i have the right to own a gun. i do not have the right to fire a gun at someone, except in certain very specific circumstances.
i have the right to bear arms. i do not have the right to own a nuclear bomb.
i have the right to free speech. i do not have the right to cry "fire" in a crowded theater.
i have the right to free speech. i do not have the right to slander someone.
i have the right to my personal beliefs. i do not have the right to deny someone a job because of their race, color, creed, religion, sexual orientation, gender, etc.
i have the right to have a BBQ pit in my backyard. i do not have the right to build a fire wherever i want.
i do not have the right to torture animals.
i do not have the right to bring a bomb onto a plane.
If i had children, i would not have the right not to vaccinate them, or the right not to send them to school.
i do not have the right to park my car in the middle of an intersection.
i do not have the right to keep an alligator in my backyard.
i do not have the right not to pay taxes.
i do not have the right not to pay for my groceries.
i do not have the right to refuse a subpeona.
etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
quote:

ORIGINAL: gungadin09
The point is, they exist.

if they are not absolute, they are imaginary. a right cannot be anything but supreme.

They are imaginary then. Or perhaps, to use your earlier language, they are only "priviledges" instead of absolute rights.

i don't see where you're going with all this. i suspect if you don't see crack addiction as being an imposition on society that it's because you're never known a crack addict. i suspect that if you had, you would see the risk more clearly. But even if you *didn't*, i'm at a loss to understand why you're so adamant that you have a right to do something you have been expressly forbidden to do by law. According to *whom* do you have this right? According to yourself? Do you see yourself as having the right to disobey any law you don't like? Do all laws violate your idea of the "rights of an individual"? Why do you think laws are made in the first place (because i can assure you that *any* law consists of society telling individuals what to do.) A society where the only rights belong to individuals, is called an anarchy. If that's what you're advocating, then good luck.

pam



TheHeretic -> RE: "A woman has the right to do what she wants with her own body" (4/19/2011 10:05:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

that is fodder for some future thread.




Deal. [;)]



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