Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (Full Version)

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TheHeretic -> Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:19:17 PM)

As this is going to be an historical document, I'm copying the whole thing. I think we are about to get another day of red hot breaking news very soon. Your thoughts?


Libya�s Pathway to PeaceBy BARACK OBAMA, DAVID CAMERON, and NICOLAS SARKOZY

Together with our NATO allies and coalition partners, the United States, France and Britain have been united from the start in responding to the crisis in Libya, and we are united on what needs to happen in order to end it.

Even as we continue our military operations today to protect civilians in Libya, we are determined to look to the future. We are convinced that better times lie ahead for the people of Libya, and a pathway can be forged to achieve just that.

We must never forget the reasons why the international community was obliged to act in the first place. As Libya descended into chaos with Colonel Muammar el-Qaddafi attacking his own people, the Arab League called for action. The Libyan opposition called for help. And the people of Libya looked to the world in their hour of need. In an historic resolution, the United Nations Security Council authorized all necessary measures to protect the people of Libya from the attacks upon them. By responding immediately, our countries, together with an international coalition, halted the advance of Qaddafi’s forces and prevented the bloodbath that he had promised to inflict upon the citizens of the besieged city of Benghazi.

Tens of thousands of lives have been protected. But the people of Libya are still suffering terrible horrors at Qaddafi’s hands each and every day. His rockets and shells rained down on defenseless civilians in Ajdabiya. The city of Misurata is enduring a medieval siege, as Qaddafi tries to strangle its population into submission. The evidence of disappearances and abuses grows daily.

Our duty and our mandate under U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 is to protect civilians, and we are doing that. It is not to remove Qaddafi by force. But it is impossible to imagine a future for Libya with Qaddafi in power. The International Criminal Court is rightly investigating the crimes committed against civilians and the grievous violations of international law. It is unthinkable that someone who has tried to massacre his own people can play a part in their future government. The brave citizens of those towns that have held out against forces that have been mercilessly targeting them would face a fearful vengeance if the world accepted such an arrangement. It would be an unconscionable betrayal.

Furthermore, it would condemn Libya to being not only a pariah state, but a failed state too. Qaddafi has promised to carry out terrorist attacks against civilian ships and airliners. And because he has lost the consent of his people any deal that leaves him in power would lead to further chaos and lawlessness. We know from bitter experience what that would mean. Neither Europe, the region, or the world can afford a new safe haven for extremists.

There is a pathway to peace that promises new hope for the people of Libya — a future without Qaddafi that preserves Libya’s integrity and sovereignty, and restores her economy and the prosperity and security of her people. This needs to begin with a genuine end to violence, marked by deeds not words. The regime has to pull back from the cities it is besieging, including Ajdabiya, Misurata and Zintan, and return to their barracks. However, so long as Qaddafi is in power, NATO must maintain its operations so that civilians remain protected and the pressure on the regime builds. Then a genuine transition from dictatorship to an inclusive constitutional process can really begin, led by a new generation of leaders. In order for that transition to succeed, Qaddafi must go and go for good. At that point, the United Nations and its members should help the Libyan people as they rebuild where Qaddafi has destroyed — to repair homes and hospitals, to restore basic utilities, and to assist Libyans as they develop the institutions to underpin a prosperous and open society.

This vision for the future of Libya has the support of a broad coalition of countries, including many from the Arab world. These countries came together in London on March 29 and founded a Contact Group which met this week in Doha to support a solution to the crisis that respects the will of the Libyan people.

Today, NATO and our partners are acting in the name of the United Nations with an unprecedented international legal mandate. But it will be the people of Libya, not the U.N., who choose their new constitution, elect their new leaders, and write the next chapter in their history.

Britain, France and the United States will not rest until the United Nations Security Council resolutions have been implemented and the Libyan people can choose their own future.






slvemike4u -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:30:58 PM)

My knee jerk reaction(and at this point what else can I offer,it is 10:30 on a Fri.night I am just seeing this,and I have had a drink or two)is that I am proud to be an American ,I am proud that my country is,in concert with France and England ,embarking on such a course...and doing so openly and with full transparency as to the goal.Removal of Qaddafi,nothing at all ambiguous about it...a clear and concise resolution to leave the people of Libya a new dawn and a new reality....given the length of Qaddafi's reign a total departure from the reality that has been for a whole generation of Libyans.
My second ,I will call this a hope rather than a reaction,is that this does not turn into a partisan football.Though I think it would be hard for any American to castigate the goal....I am sure some will find ample partisan angles in which to score political points.
Edited to add,thanks for this Rich I hadn't seen or heard anything about this.....so you are officially a news breaker :-)




Sanity -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:31:45 PM)


Heres a related story from way back on March 28th. Who can spot the irony?

quote:

Republicans upset with Obama's regime change remarks


[image]http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif[/image]When U.S. President Barack Obama said Monday it would be wrong to seek regime change in Libya by force, Republican lawmakers took issue -- saying removing Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is and should be precisely the goal.

Gadhafi must have been comforted to hear the president's words, Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said following Obama's televised address.

"If we tell Gadhafi, 'Don't worry, you won't be removed by force,' I think that's very encouraging to Gadhafi," McCain said, after Obama delivered a speech explaining U.S. intervention in Libya.

[image]http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif[/image]
[image]http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif[/image]McCain said the president's words were "puzzling" because Obama has previously said that U.S. policy is for Gadhafi's ouster.

"The reason why we wage wars is to achieve the results of a policy that we state," McCain said.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-28/politics/obama.reaction_1_obama-libya-mission-john-mccain?_s=PM:POLITICS




slvemike4u -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:32:55 PM)

I hate it when I am right [&o]




Sanity -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:34:37 PM)


Yes of course mike, when a Democrat is president we must all rise above petty partisan politics. Stand shoulder to shoulder for the good of the nation - nay, for the good of the world!

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

My knee jerk reaction(and at this point what else can I offer,it is 10:30 on a Fri.night I am just seeing this,and I have had a drink or two)is that I am proud to be an American ,I am proud that my country is,in concert with France and England ,embarking on such a course...and doing so openly and with full transparency as to the goal.Removal of Qaddafi,nothing at all ambiguous about it...a clear and concise resolution to leave the people of Libya a new dawn and a new reality....given the length of Qaddafi's reign a total departure from the reality that has been for a whole generation of Libyans.
My second ,I will call this a hope rather than a reaction,is that this does not turn into a partisan football.Though I think it would be hard for any American to castigate the goal....I am sure some will find ample partisan angles in which to score political points.
Edited to add,thanks for this Rich I hadn't seen or heard anything about this.....so you are officially a news breaker :-)





Sanity -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:37:03 PM)


When Fox news is finally outlawed and Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are hung in the street for heresy you may call it politic, but until then it will always be politics

Plural

With an s

quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

I hate it when I am right [&o]





TheHeretic -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:44:13 PM)

They were wrong too, Sanity. This isn't our mess, we shouldn't have started what we have, and we should not be wading in any further. This is the road Bush II took, and that Obama condemned him for taking.

Oh well. I guess we do need big bases on the ground over there anyway.




isoLadyOwner -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:52:22 PM)

The chaos, bloodshed, and bungling that will follow in Libya is easy to predict.

I still reject Obama's Imperialistic warmongering.





slvemike4u -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:53:38 PM)

I will limit this response to Rich,the other guy can pound sand...
I don't see this as analogous to Iraq Rich,Libya does not present the same issues as presented by Iraq.Removing Qaddafi does not lead to the same power vacuum as removing Saddam....and Iran is not as likely a player in filling that power vacuum.
Libya has a home grown resistance in place,one that can be expected to elevate leaders in order to form a gov't....in Iraq all of that needed manufacture.....manufacture that the Bush Administration was unequally unprepared to provide
Than there is the matter that we are not alone,nor are we accompanied by an alliance of the unwilling this time around.France is by necessity a major player here..and will need to continue to be so. 




isoLadyOwner -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:56:12 PM)

Let's see how long it takes for the boneheaded DNC lemmings to start spouting Obama's empty talking points.




tazzygirl -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 7:59:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

They were wrong too, Sanity. This isn't our mess, we shouldn't have started what we have, and we should not be wading in any further. This is the road Bush II took, and that Obama condemned him for taking.

Oh well. I guess we do need big bases on the ground over there anyway.


We truly have no business being there. Its not our fight.




TheHeretic -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:01:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Its not our fight.



Once we commit, yes, Tazzy, it is.




Sanity -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:03:26 PM)


My view of the NATO action itself in a nut shell is this - without ground troops and without rebuilding the country, guiding them into a Democracy after we create a power vacuum there as we did in Iraq, how do we know that were not just turning Libya and its oil wealth over to some sort of Taliban organization.

What Ive read, the best guesses out of Washington say that we dont really know who the rebels are, and its troubling to me that polls in the region time and time again show  that the majority there are very "observant" Muslims.

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic

They were wrong too, Sanity. This isn't our mess, we shouldn't have started what we have, and we should not be wading in any further. This is the road Bush II took, and that Obama condemned him for taking.

Oh well. I guess we do need big bases on the ground over there anyway.




isoLadyOwner -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:06:25 PM)

"We hope Iraq will be the first domino and that Libya and Iran will follow. We don't like being kept out of markets because it gives our competitors an unfair advantage,"

John Gibson, chief executive of Halliburton's Energy Service Group, told International Oil Daily in an interview in May of 2003.





slvemike4u -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:09:35 PM)

Do you have the same objection to "observant" Jews,Christians and Buddhists ?




isoLadyOwner -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:13:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Do you have the same objection to "observant" Jews,Christians and Buddhists ?



Do those religions command their believers to slaughter infidels?




TheHeretic -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:22:37 PM)

It's a little after 5:00 a.m. in Tripoli right now. Sunrise is about 6:30.

To the Shores of Tripoli...




slvemike4u -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:32:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Do you have the same objection to "observant" Jews,Christians and Buddhists ?



Do those religions command their believers to slaughter infidels?
Do you mind if an actual conversation could take place...minus your bigotry ?




Hillwilliam -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 8:51:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: isoLadyOwner


quote:

ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Do you have the same objection to "observant" Jews,Christians and Buddhists ?



Do those religions command their believers to slaughter infidels?

Ever study much European history from about 1400 to 1700?

More or less constant slaughter because Christians couldn't agree which Christian group was the best.




rulemylife -> RE: Obama/Cameron/Sarkozy Op-Ed: Is this a declaration of war? (4/15/2011 9:04:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sanity


Heres a related story from way back on March 28th. Who can spot the irony?

quote:

Republicans upset with Obama's regime change remarks


[image]http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif[/image]When U.S. President Barack Obama said Monday it would be wrong to seek regime change in Libya by force, Republican lawmakers took issue -- saying removing Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi is and should be precisely the goal.


Gadhafi must have been comforted to hear the president's words, Sen. John McCain, R-Arizona, said following Obama's televised address.

"If we tell Gadhafi, 'Don't worry, you won't be removed by force,' I think that's very encouraging to Gadhafi," McCain said, after Obama delivered a speech explaining U.S. intervention in Libya.

[image]http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif[/image]
[image]http://articles.cnn.com/images/pixel.gif[/image]McCain said the president's words were "puzzling" because Obama has previously said that U.S. policy is for Gadhafi's ouster.

"The reason why we wage wars is to achieve the results of a policy that we state," McCain said.

http://articles.cnn.com/2011-03-28/politics/obama.reaction_1_obama-libya-mission-john-mccain?_s=PM:POLITICS



Who can spot how you don't know how to read?

The words in the joint statement said the same thing.

From the original post:

Our duty and our mandate under U.N. Security Council Resolution 1973 is to protect civilians, and we are doing that. It is not to remove Qaddafi by force.

Where's the irony?




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