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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 9:00:38 PM

anthrosub

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Why do Believers persist in believing that non-belief is a belief?

Answer: When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

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Post #: 401

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 9:34:41 PM

Kirata

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Why do Believers persist in believing that non-belief is a belief?

The way I see it, some people believe that there is a God and some don't... they just don't buy it, that's all. End of story.

But then there are the "Type 2" atheists (so to speak) who are ever ready to level their finger at the unwashed and proclaim the revealed wisdom that "THERE IS NO GOD!" with all the righteous vigor of a Sunday morning preacher. They are assholes, of course, nothing more or less than a bunch of pestilent priests from the Sacred College for the Propagation of Materialism, piously devoted to stamping out heresy wherever they find it, and due no more respect than their equally crazy (though generally better coiffured) Sunday morning counterparts.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/4/2011 9:40:50 PM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 402

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 9:40:32 PM

lickenforyou

Posts: 379
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

So, only half the people in this country are ignorant, scared, and/or bigoted.

Again, your solution?

My only solution (contribution) is to lay out the facts. Over time people will evolve away from needing to believe in the supernatural. I won't be alive to see it, but it is certainly trending that way around the world.

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Post #: 403

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 9:43:10 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Why do Believers persist in believing that non-belief is a belief?

The way I see it, some people believe that there is a God and some don't... they just don't buy it, that's all. End of story.

But then there are the "Type 2" atheists (so to speak) who are ever ready to level their finger at the unwashed and proclaim the revealed wisdom that "THERE IS NO GOD!" with all the righteous vigor of a Sunday morning preacher. They are assholes, of course, nothing more or less than a pestilent bunch of inquisitorial priests from the Sacred College for the Propagation of Materialism, piously devoted to stamping out heresy wherever they find it, and due no more respect than their equally crazy (though generally better coiffured) Sunday morning counterparts.

K.

http://atheism.about.com/od/fundamentalistatheists/a/AtheistsRude.htm
"This leads directly into the second major problem religious theists who complain about atheists being "rude" don't offer similar complaints about other religious theists who are equally "rude." Richard Dawkins, for example, is often singled out for the accusation of rudeness because he traveled around to different religious communities and offered commentary on what he thought was wrong with their religious beliefs. Evangelists who go around to various communities to promote their religious beliefs and also criticize common lifestyles are not, however, called rude or intolerant.

Some religious believers go much further than this — there are a number of groups which go door-to-door promoting their beliefs and telling people that they should change because their current beliefs are wrong or even dangerous. There are "street preachers" who are even more aggressive and direct in their proselytization. I don't see them being criticized for being "rude" and "intolerant," nor do you see atheists doing anything remotely similar.

Then of course there are the little things that atheists have to put up with. Most atheists have received religious spam from relatives who pass around chain emails calling for prayer or attacking church/state separation. Most atheists have received emails from religious friends and relatives that contain religious quotes or Bible verses at the end. Most atheists have been told that they are being prayed for.

How often do atheists do anything similar in return? In fact, atheists rarely if ever do such things and if they did, they'd be accused of rudeness and intolerance. At the same time, religious theists keep up such behavior without a second thought. Why does this double standard exist?

The answer, I believe, is that it's not "rudeness" which people are so much objecting to as it is atheism itself. If religious theists were truly concerned about rudeness and civility, they would apply their standards consistently — and they would be much more concerned with the far greater and more widespread instances of so-called "rudeness" on the part of religious theists themselves. Unfortunately, they are unable to perceive such behavior as genuinely rude because they are convinced that they are acting on behalf of Truth.

Christians are right and atheists are wrong, therefore it's OK for Christians to do things that atheists would be castigated for doing. Christians, being right, are entitled to behave in ways that they tell others is rude, intolerant, and uncivil for them to imitate. In fact, whenever anyone objects that's just a sign that they should do it even more often and more forcefully — resistance to the Truth is a sign that the Truth is needed even more.

Thus we must conclude that it's not the case that atheists are especially rude in what they are saying and doing, but that they are treated as not being entitled to same social privileges and behaviors as Christians. Attacks on atheists for being rude, intolerant, disrespectful, and militant are just part of a long string of attempts to enforce or promote Christian privilege in society."

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(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 404

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 10:00:12 PM

tweakabelle

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From: Sydney Australia
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Hippie's points above are not just theoretical. HK is describing what actually happens.

For evidence to support the claims HK makes, check out post # 104 for an example of ignorant offensive rudeness way beyond any reasonable standard by an apologist for Christianity, and post # 108 for information correcting the falsehoods, outrageous assumptions, wild judgements and hysterical accusations at the link below.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3653888/mpage_6/tm.htm

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/4/2011 10:03:01 PM >

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Post #: 405

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 10:16:41 PM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle

Hippie's points above are not just theoretical. HK is describing what actually happens.

For evidence to support the claims HK makes, check out post # 104 for an example of ignorant offensive rudeness way beyond any reasonable standard by an apologist for Christianity, and post # 108 for information correcting the falsehoods, outrageous assumptions, wild judgements and hysterical accusations at the link below.

http://www.collarchat.com/m_3653888/mpage_6/tm.htm

I note that Kirata's response (all answers are responses, but not all responses are answers) missed being an answer to my question by at least 4000 light-years.

It's a simple question. Why do Believers persist in calling Atheism a "belief"? Anthrosub "nailed" it, in a cryptic way.

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Post #: 406

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 10:45:35 PM

Edwynn

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~FR~

This as example of rudeness so identified in a near recent post:

The evidence as in this instance, post #104:

quote:

ORIGINAL: liks2plzlf

Everyone of the predictions are in there, you wouldn't know cause you never studied the bible. If you watch the news, or look at some history, you would know all of those things have taken place. The bible fills us in on many of the things about to take place on earth.

Considered as "an example of ignorant offensive rudeness way beyond any reasonable standard by an apologist for Christianity."

I'm missing something here. It was just a statement, from a particular standpoint. Not one I agree with, but I had no trouble in just leaving it at that.

OTOH, here is an example of the politeness of the poster of # 108 cited above:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Edwynn continues to demonstrate his inability to carry on a rational discussion without remarking on the character or imagined agenda of those with opposing views. Not sure what his problem is but he engages in a silliness that makes it difficult to give serious attention to any of his propositions. We do not win points on these public boards for disrespect of those with whom we disagree.

Which in case, apparently is considered as polite discourse for some.

Good thing that I understand cultural differences here. The same words can mean something so completely different to those in other societies.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/4/2011 10:54:43 PM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 407

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 10:59:47 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

This leads directly into the second major problem religious theists who complain about atheists being "rude" don't offer similar complaints about other religious theists who are equally "rude."

It's seems odd that you would post that to me, and even more so that I would be thought of as a defender of religion in any general sense. Anyone who actually reads my posts knows that I don't regard most of what passes for "religion" these days as even remotely deserving of the term. In my opinion, no teaching that separates a man from his fellows can possibly be called a religious truth. Some fatheads just seem incapable of grasping that to attack an utterly specious argument is not the same thing as "defending" its real or imagined target.

In what is perhaps the supreme irony of all, I can do a better job of dismantling Christianity than they can. And I have more than once in these forums knocked the legs out from under one or another of its central claims, not the least of which being that it has anything whatsoever to do with the teachings of Christ. But, of course, we see a lot more fundie "atheists" around here than evangelical Christians, and I suppose my posting history must look skewed for that cause. But I have no more sympathy for narrow-minded Christians than I do for their equally offensive counterparts.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

Some religious believers go much further than this — there are a number of groups which go door-to-door promoting their beliefs and telling people that they should change because their current beliefs are wrong or even dangerous. There are "street preachers" who are even more aggressive and direct in their proselytization. I don't see them being criticized for being "rude" and "intolerant," nor do you see atheists doing anything remotely similar.

Well then this must be where they get even. Because you know as well as I do that, around here, we regularly see certain nominal "atheists" going from thread to thread "promoting their beliefs and telling people that they should change because their current beliefs are wrong or even dangerous."

I put "atheists" in quotes above because I have been friends and worked professionally with Atheists all my life, and can say without caveat that I have never met more generous, ethical, and open-minded researchers and people. But while not one of them bends a knee to Theism, neither do they bend a knee to Materialism. And nothing makes them cringe more than having to watch narrow-minded Materialists promoting themselves as "Atheists".

Christians call themselves Christians, not "Theists". They don't just believe in "a" God, they believe in the Christian God. If Materialists would call themselves Materialists instead of "Atheists," I think the lines between the two would be more clearly drawn.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/4/2011 11:17:27 PM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 408

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 11:06:03 PM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I note that Kirata's response (all answers are responses, but not all responses are answers) missed being an answer to my question by at least 4000 light-years.

I thought I rather clearly accepted that non-belief is simply non-belief, end of story. My point, or at least the one I intended to make, was that Materialism is a belief system, and therefore another matter.

K.

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 409

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 11:19:19 PM

liks2plzlf

Posts: 390
Joined: 7/21/2005
Status: offline

Are you denying those statements are not in the Bible? I can give you the passages. There is alot more prophecy about to happen in the near future. Theey ask for signs, he gives them yet they still do not believe

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Post #: 410

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 11:22:04 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

oooooooook.. first.. No Im not painting everyone with the same brush. Did I say thats how I felt?

Not everyone- atheists. What you said was:

quote:

Would you support a group you do not identify with that was constantly in your face about how stupid you were, how less intelligent, how more likely to commit crimes... ect ect ect?

Combined with your castigation of the article posted, this implies that you see atheists as a 'group' who behave in a way that you do not approve of, rather than seeing us as individuals with widely varied beliefs and behaviors.

Had you prefaced the above comment with something like, 'I can understand why some people of faith can feel that way', it would not have seemed that you were giving your personal opinion.

quote:

Are you saying the writers of that piece didnt check?

quote:

And if anyone believes that tripe of an article will endear anyone who is religious to their cause is sadly mistaken.

These would be 2 of the posts that lead me to believe that you were still reacting to the posted article.

That said, please point out where the article said that atheists are more intelligent than theists, or that theists are stupid. It isn't there; but that did not stop boi from claiming that it was, nor you from intimating that it was.

I honestly think that both of you read much into the opinion piece that was either not there at all, or not meant the way you took it. As for one of the authors referencing his own work, why wouldn't he? It is, again, an opinion piece, not a scientific article submitted for peer review. Don't most people draw from their own experiences when writing their opinions?

quote:

issues such as governmental use of torture, the death penalty, punitive hitting of children, racism, sexism, homophobia, anti-Semitism, environmental degradation or human rights — the irreligious tend to be more ethical than their religious peers, particularly compared with those who describe themselves as very religious.

As someone who I know disagrees with the religious right and often clashes with them on exactly the above issues, do you really disagree with this?
Nowhere does it say all religious people, or even any religious people are immoral. Political party wasn't addressed anywhere that I can see, but the results of such a study might be pretty spectacular.

quote:

Yep, if you are religious, you will be a murderer.

Yet another example of overreacting to something that seems to have offended you. The authors never said that.

quote:

Funno how atheists represent at the most 4% of the US population

I doubt the number is that low, but ok.

quote:

Maybe people need to stop looking at one piece of the person and look at the totality.
And thats for both sides of the "religion" issue.

I agree.

quote:

AS for the WBC, they are a bunch of fruitloops without a bowl.

Well said!

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Post #: 411

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/4/2011 11:43:07 PM

Hippiekinkster

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From: Liechtenstein
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I note that Kirata's response (all answers are responses, but not all responses are answers) missed being an answer to my question by at least 4000 light-years.

I thought I rather clearly accepted that non-belief is simply non-belief, end of story. My point, or at least the one I intended to make, was that Materialism is a belief system, and therefore another matter.

K.

Please note that I quoted an article in my post #404. It does represent my views more eloquently than I could phrase them.

Regarding your response quoted above, I have your personal view of the matter, which is generally how I see things as well (a debate about materialism being a belief system is, I feel, outside the scope of the OP). But it seems to me that your view of atheism is unorthodox; the vast majority of theists that I encounter in such discussions consider Atheism a "belief" or "belief system". I simply don't understand this position at all.

I do not at all see my Atheism as a "belief". I don't "believe" that no gods exist; there are no gods. It is that simple. Atheism is not a belief system and I wish theists could grasp that very simple fact.
.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 412

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 12:02:14 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

~FR~

This as example of rudeness so identified in a near recent post:

The evidence as in this instance, post #104:

quote:

ORIGINAL: liks2plzlf

Everyone of the predictions are in there, you wouldn't know cause you never studied the bible. If you watch the news, or look at some history, you would know all of those things have taken place. The bible fills us in on many of the things about to take place on earth.

Considered as "an example of ignorant offensive rudeness way beyond any reasonable standard by an apologist for Christianity."

I'm missing something here. It was just a statement, from a particular standpoint. Not one I agree with, but I had no trouble in just leaving it at that.

OTOH, here is an example of the politeness of the poster of # 108 cited above:

quote:

ORIGINAL: vincentML

Edwynn continues to demonstrate his inability to carry on a rational discussion without remarking on the character or imagined agenda of those with opposing views. Not sure what his problem is but he engages in a silliness that makes it difficult to give serious attention to any of his propositions. We do not win points on these public boards for disrespect of those with whom we disagree.

Which in case, apparently is considered as polite discourse for some.

Good thing that I understand cultural differences here. The same words can mean something so completely different to those in other societies.

Edwynn, the posts # 104 and 108 are on the thread on the link given - ie the "The Where are all the Miracles gone?" thread - not this thread. While I thank you for checking them out it seems you looked in the wrong place. You will be linked the correct location by clicking here

I thought I had made the correct place clear by ending the sentence "at the link below" and then giving the link to the relevant thread. Obviously I didn't make this clear enough. My bad.

If you check out the link I cited you will find the abusive post, and a response correcting the nasty claims. I can assure you the differences are anything but cultural. They are vicious, completely false, rabid trash that point to appalling deficiencies in the mind that invented them.

I might add that no apology has been received to date.

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/5/2011 12:09:02 AM >

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Post #: 413

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 12:22:25 AM

Edwynn

Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
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Hey! sorry!

Not your 'bad' at all. All mine on that one.

But I still would hope that you can see that going overboard, etc, is not limited to those on a particular side of a religious fence. It's here and in every forum, on many sides, on many issues.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/5/2011 12:23:39 AM >

(in reply to tweakabelle)

Post #: 414

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 12:26:49 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I do not at all see my Atheism as a "belief". I don't "believe" that no gods exist; there are no gods. It is that simple.

Well yanno, HK, a Theist might say, with the same sincere certainty, that he doesn't just "believe" there's a God; there is a God: It's that simple. Now what? When two people adopt opposite and immovable positions, each claiming that the other is not only wrong but dead wrong, where do you go from there?

I'd have to say that I think there is a belief operating on both sides. Not about God or gods, forget that. Both believe they are right. And that is a belief, and necessarily only a belief, because neither can prove it.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/5/2011 12:42:48 AM >

(in reply to Hippiekinkster)

Post #: 415

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 12:41:49 AM

Edwynn

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Joined: 10/26/2008
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A concept which arises from the construct of a mind other than your own, then presented to you from another person, then you are now 'confronted' with the 'decision' of believing or not believing, but you are told that the latter 'option' is a belief too ....

See where the trouble is here?

I don't like somebody coming up to me with his latest 'understanding,' then having it foisted upon me, and not only that, but the 'decision' foisted upon me as well.

Some of us do not sit well with that.

< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/5/2011 12:45:55 AM >

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 416

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 12:44:10 AM

Kirata

Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

A concept which arises from the construct of a mind other than your own, then presented to you from another person, then you are now 'confronted' with the 'decision' of believing or not believing, but you are told that the latter 'option' is a belief too ....

See where the trouble is here?

Yeah, but that's not my position.

K.

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 417

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 12:49:36 AM

Edwynn

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I didn't think so, hence my wonder as to why some proclaim atheism as a 'belief,' even though it might actually be that for some very few.

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 418

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 2:10:08 AM

tweakabelle

Posts: 7522
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: Sydney Australia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

Hey! sorry!

Not your 'bad' at all. All mine on that one.

But I still would hope that you can see that going overboard, etc, is not limited to those on a particular side of a religious fence. It's here and in every forum, on many sides, on many issues.

Yeppers. No one has a monopoly on excess. In individual cases, such as the one I've drawn attention to, it's often pretty clear where responsibility lies. Whether that constitutes part of a pattern is up to each person to decide for themselves I'd say.

The instance I mentioned was offered as empirical evidence to support and validate the claims made above by HK in post #404. On that basis, we ought to be able to agree there is some substance to his position. It's up to others to do the same to support and validate any position they wish to adopt.

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Post #: 419

RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/5/2011 2:32:03 AM

Hippiekinkster

Posts: 5512
Joined: 11/20/2007
From: Liechtenstein
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster

I do not at all see my Atheism as a "belief". I don't "believe" that no gods exist; there are no gods. It is that simple.

Well yanno, HK, a Theist might say, with the same sincere certainty, that he doesn't just "believe" there's a God; there is a God: It's that simple. Now what? When two people adopt opposite and immovable positions, each claiming that the other is not only wrong but dead wrong, where do you go from there?

I'd have to say that I think there is a belief operating on both sides. Not about God or gods, forget that. Both believe they are right. And that is a belief, and necessarily only a belief, because neither can prove it.

K.

Well yanno, K, of someone is going to posit the existence of something, it kinda behooves him to present something a bit more substantial than "because I said so", doncha think? You know, some kind of evidence? It's that old Pink Unicorn problem. If someone asserts that there are Pink Unicorns here on the old Orb, it is incumbent upon him to present an argument with a bit more meat on the bones than "I do, I do, I do, I do believe, I do, I do..." (The Cowardly Lion in that excellent documentary, The Wizard of Oz)

Why on Earth would anyone who is even halfway rational believe somebody who can't even show that what he claims to believe in even exists?

Sorry, old chap, but your attempt at drawing some sort of equivalency, like the believers do with the Evolution (science) vs. Creationism (Xtian mystical voodoo) "debate", is a failure.

_____________________________

"We are convinced that freedom w/o Socialism is privilege and injustice, and that Socialism w/o freedom is slavery and brutality." Bakunin

“Nothing we do, however virtuous, can be accomplished alone; therefore we are saved by love.” Reinhold Ne

(in reply to Kirata)

Post #: 420

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