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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:09:02 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If a proposition of the type "X is true" is tested, there are only 3 possible outcomes. These are:
a) the proposition is proved. Therefore X is true;
b) the proposition is disproved. Therefore X is untrue; and
c) the proposition is neither proved nor disproved.
If the proposition fails to be be proven true (option a) then all other possible outcomes are covered by options b & c. There are no other possible outcomes.

Actually (and in universal practice, including everyday life, law, and science), there are at least two more:
d) based on the preponderance of evidence, X is probably true.
e) based on the preponderance of evidence, X is probably not true

There are also:
f) based on the evidence I have at present, I assume X true for now
g) based on the evidence I have at present, I assume X false for now

Your (d) and (e) are subsumed under (c).

The three possibilities of proved, disproved, or neither exist in pure form only in logic and math.  However, to conduct our affairs in a world where ambiguity, uncertainty, and partial knowledge prevail, we humans need actionable truths.  For example:

Most civil courts in the United States deem a proposition proved (i.e., true) using a preponderance of evidence standard.  Now you're saying those guilty (and not guilty) verdicts have no truth value, as they are neither proved nor disproved.

Falsifiable hypotheses and inductive reasoning are fundamental to the scientific method.  In science, theories never become facts but are deemed forever provisionally true based on a preponderance of evidence (granted that some scientific theories are supported by so much evidence that they are tantamount to fact).

Medical diagnoses are commonly based on partial and ambiguous observations.

Operationally, we rely on probable truths, provisional truths, perceived truths, guesses, estimates, and working hypotheses and surprisingly few truths which are, with absolute certainty, proved, disproved or neither.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
Paintings, jokes, music, love, joy, and poems are examples of artifacts and experiences which can be true but not susceptible to rational or scientific proof.

Your last sentence is nonsense.

I'd be curious to know why you think this.  Care to elaborate?

Are you claiming that propositions such as "I love my spouse," "The sunset was beautiful this evening," and "South Park really nails fourth grade" have no truth value, that no propositions within the realms of meaning and experience can?  What about experiential propositions such as "The sky is blue."  Actually, the sky is not intrinsically blue or any color.

Is truth the sole preserve of rationalism, specifically deductive rationalism?  Is the only true truth objective or deductive truth?  (It seems to me that "truth" -- even rational truth -- is much more nuanced and complex than the three choices above, which was my point, but I'd like to understand your view.)


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:11:38 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:



I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential.



quote:



I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that




quote:



I don't know that you know that. And, I certainly don't know that "most" people know that.





"You think that people are inherently imbued with worst of intentions?"


"You don't seem to be following the conversation very well."


You are welcome to point out the error here.






< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/7/2011 8:20:44 PM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:14:50 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
Personally, I don't believe the existence of God can be conclusively proved or disproved either logically or scientifically.

So if something cannot be proven how does that logically lead anyone to conclude that it just might be true?

Logically any proposition which can be neither proven nor disproven in a particular logical or knowledge system is an undecidable.  My supposition is that the question of the existence of God is an undecidable in any logical system.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:34:24 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hippiekinkster
quote:

Tweaky: At the end of the day, I don’t think it’s really fair to religious belief to evaluate it on rational/logical/scientific/empirical grounds alone. However, in the public domain, rationality has proved to be one of the best methods to resolve disputes and arrive at sensible decisions that humans have invented or developed.
On what basis do you suggest we evaluate Deism, if not on logical/empirical/scientific grounds?

I'm going to guess that we agree that religion and religious belief  -- in fact, any mythic belief system -- shouldn't determine the conduct of affairs in the public sphere.  Science class should teach science, not theology.  Decisions about female reproductive health, climate change, and stem cell research should be based on the best available scientific consensus, not religious beliefs.  As tweak said, public affairs are best conducted primarily based on rationality and objective knowledge (to the extent that there is such a thing).  Although religions do participate in the public domain, for example as charitable organizations, separation of church and state is a good thing for both.

That said, once religion and religious belief are excluded from determining public policy, what public policy need is there to "evaluate Deism ... on logical/empirical/scientific grounds?"

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:34:41 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn





quote:



I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential.



quote:



I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that




quote:



I don't know that you know that. And, I certainly don't know that "most" people know that.





"You think that people are inherently imbued with worst of intentions?"


"You don't seem to be following the conversation very well."


You are welcome to point out the error here.



No, I think that people are motivated by self interest. But, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think that most people think about why certain actions have been made criminal. Only, that they are wrong and/or forbidden by their beliefs.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:37:13 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
Not to forget the easy slide from rationality to rationalization that has occurred in our recent past and in fact the present world.

Quite so.  And thence to magical thinking.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 8:47:53 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: rulemylife
quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
Personally, I don't believe the existence of God can be conclusively proved or disproved either logically or scientifically.

So if something cannot be proven how does that logically lead anyone to conclude that it just might be true?

Logically any proposition which can be neither proven nor disproven in a particular logical or knowledge system is an undecidable.  My supposition is that the question of the existence of God is an undecidable in any logical system.



That's because gods are in our consciousness. let's say I tell you that we all have an invisible jellybean that follows us around and watches out for us. I don't think that me not being able to prove it would lead you to believe that it's undecided.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 9:02:01 PM   
Edwynn


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No, I think that people are motivated by self interest. But, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think that most people think about why certain actions have been made criminal. Only, that they are wrong and/or forbidden by their beliefs.




Sorry for the sharp response in any case.


This seems to bring us into the territory of "if an explanation is needed, then the explanation wouldn't do any good."

And I'm not aiming that towards you, but to the question of what society supposedly 'requires' in the way of treatment of each other.


What I broached on before is that sometimes both 'non-believers' and 'believers' seem to delude themselves into thinking that they know more what the 'other' is thinking or why they think as they do even more than they themselves do.

Examples of where religion-based societies or 'atheistic-based' societies have done great harm abound. That's doing us a whale of good to re-hash all that, isn't it?

I do not consider separation of church and state to be in the least wise 'atheistic,' despite clamouring of such from some quarters. If I were actually so spiritual, I think the sacredness of the matter is something I'd rather keep the state's paws off of.

Please do not conflate all 'codified religion' with all and every sense of spirituality that many people posses outside of that, nor even every of the billions of people within it.


People with no thought to spirituality at all and many people of various faiths or personal spiritual understandings all do a lot of good in the world.





< Message edited by Edwynn -- 5/7/2011 9:06:23 PM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 9:13:06 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No, I think that people are motivated by self interest. But, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think that most people think about why certain actions have been made criminal. Only, that they are wrong and/or forbidden by their beliefs.




some are motivated by hate.... interest in others..... and any number factors

hence we can say religion is the bulk of your beliefs whatever those beliefs may be.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 9:41:08 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

We have to experience it for ourselves and we haven't. How is it that god chooses who sees the miracles? Surely the ones he has to convince are those with no faith? There is no point preaching to the converted they say.


Maybe you have and you just dont see it. Maybe you have and you just dont believe it. I cannot say. Your experiences are not those of another. Nor what another experiences can you discount so easily.

quote:

I've never really understood this idea that you have to have faith before you start seeing miracles happen around you. Going back to before anyone knew of religion or god there had to be someone with no faith that suddenly witnessed a miracle. So why is it different now?


If you have never experienced a miracle, how can you state to certainly how it must happen?

quote:

The more likely evolution of faith is that people needed to make sense of the world around them, built up this idea of the creator and then started to see everything around them as a miracle.


More likely... using that phrase shows even you cannot be certain. This is your belief, and you are welcome to have it. It is not the belief of some others. How can you be so certain the way you see it is the "right" way?


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 9:43:25 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Well, if you don't understand the not having to prove a negative thing, then I am superior to you.


If you raise the question, the burden of proof is upon you. You state there is no logic behind believing in a "god". You have yet to prove the absence of a "god".

The ball is still, and probably will be forever, in your court. I dont see anyone making an argument that there is a "god.

As far as you feeling you are superior to anyone... I guess if that helps you sleep at night. Its my belief no one is superior to anyone else.

quote:

I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense


seems you need to work on your own "broader sense"


< Message edited by tazzygirl -- 5/7/2011 9:46:08 PM >

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 9:47:13 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn




quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No, I think that people are motivated by self interest. But, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think that most people think about why certain actions have been made criminal. Only, that they are wrong and/or forbidden by their beliefs.




Sorry for the sharp response in any case.


This seems to bring us into the territory of "if an explanation is needed, then the explanation wouldn't do any good."

And I'm not aiming that towards you, but to the question of what society supposedly 'requires' in the way of treatment of each other.


What I broached on before is that sometimes both 'non-believers' and 'believers' seem to delude themselves into thinking that they know more what the 'other' is thinking or why they think as they do even more than they themselves do.

Examples of where religion-based societies or 'atheistic-based' societies have done great harm abound. That's doing us a whale of good to re-hash all that, isn't it?

I do not consider separation of church and state to be in the least wise 'atheistic,' despite clamouring of such from some quarters. If I were actually so spiritual, I think the sacredness of the matter is something I'd rather keep the state's paws off of.

Please do not conflate all 'codified religion' with all and every sense of spirituality that many people posses outside of that, nor even every of the billions of people within it.


People with no thought to spirituality at all and many people of various faiths or personal spiritual understandings all do a lot of good in the world.



I agree that some people believe that they know what the other side is thinking.I try not to do that. I'm not one of the militant atheist that believes religion has been the cause of all the wars and misery on this planet. In fact, quite the opposite. I believe religion has been the single most important factor in the evolution of societies. Also, the "religious feeling," that Einstein talks about, is what brings about the yearning to know. I just think that eventually humans will grow past the need to fill in the blank with the supernatural.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 9:56:46 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

quote:

Well, if you don't understand the not having to prove a negative thing, then I am superior to you.


If you raise the question, the burden of proof is upon you. You state there is no logic behind believing in a "god". You have yet to prove the absence of a "god".

The ball is still, and probably will be forever, in your court. I dont see anyone making an argument that there is a "god.

As far as you feeling you are superior to anyone... I guess if that helps you sleep at night. Its my belief no one is superior to anyone else.

quote:

I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense


seems you need to work on your own "broader sense"



I didn't raise the question. The question was raised before I was even born.

It's your belief that no one is superior to anyone else? What do you base that belief on?


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 10:09:46 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		People may be better at things than other people. Im possibly better at delivering a baby than you are, not knowing what your profession is, but knowing my own. But I am equally certain you are better at at least one thing than I am. Knowledge and skills can place one person above another, but typically it equals out eventually.

But, as people, you are not superior to me... nor am I to you. We are both humans, and as such, on equal footing.

I do trust that doesnt need to be explained further.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 10:33:42 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

People may be better at things than other people. Im possibly better at delivering a baby than you are, not knowing what your profession is, but knowing my own. But I am equally certain you are better at at least one thing than I am. Knowledge and skills can place one person above another, but typically it equals out eventually.

But, as people, you are not superior to me... nor am I to you. We are both humans, and as such, on equal footing.

I do trust that doesnt need to be explained further.


It does need to be explained further. What are you basing your belief on? You're only telling me your conclusion. I want to know why you think that because we are both human that neither of us can be superior?


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Profile   Post #: 555
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 10:44:25 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		The notion of superiority is a fallacy. First, it supposes that you are cut off from the rest of the world, that you live seperate from everyone else. Second, its the arrogance of the assumption that someone actually believes they are better than everyone else.

How would you know you are superior than me? You have never met me, dont know much about me, dont know what my skills are, dont know what I am capable of. Nor do I know these things about you. But here you are, assuming you are superior to me.

What do you base that assumption upon? A few written words on a message board? That drips arrogance on your part.

To believe yourself superior, you would have to live above everyone and everything else. Yet, you are dependent upon the same air everyone else breathes, the same water everyone else drinks, the same sun everyone else has...

Your very existence is because two people who were before you created you.... the same as everyone else. Explain how that makes you superior to anyone else?

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lickenforyou)
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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 11:14:39 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The notion of superiority is a fallacy. First, it supposes that you are cut off from the rest of the world, that you live seperate from everyone else. Second, its the arrogance of the assumption that someone actually believes they are better than everyone else.

How would you know you are superior than me? You have never met me, dont know much about me, dont know what my skills are, dont know what I am capable of. Nor do I know these things about you. But here you are, assuming you are superior to me.

What do you base that assumption upon? A few written words on a message board? That drips arrogance on your part.

To believe yourself superior, you would have to live above everyone and everything else. Yet, you are dependent upon the same air everyone else breathes, the same water everyone else drinks, the same sun everyone else has...

Your very existence is because two people who were before you created you.... the same as everyone else. Explain how that makes you superior to anyone else?


Forget that I said I was superior. I said "if you thought a certain way" and I was being facecous, anyway.

I don't see how being superior means you live separate from other people. Because a person needs oxygen in order to breathe means they can't be superior? Because someone is arrogant, it means they can't be correct in their belief that they are superior? In what ways and to whom or what are we equal?


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/7/2011 11:24:46 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		The only thing that seperates us is skills. We all come into this world in the same exact manner. We all grow up needing the same exact needs. Life experience and what we learn seperate us into individuals.

But, lets say a surgeon is superior to everyone else because of his talents. That may be so... unless the talent at that moment is for someone who knows how to farm. Unless that surgeon knows how, who is he superior too?

quote:

I don't see how being superior means you live separate from other people.


Being superior means you dont need people, especially people you believe are inferior to yourself. At more than one point in your life, you will need to depend on someone else for something. Those skills that sets you "above" others, someone else taught you. Someone else knows, or knew, more than you. As a result, you could never be superior because someone will always know something more than you, something different than you, something as equally vital and important as you.

Its those different skills, that different knowledge, that prevents anyone from being superior to anyone else.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to lickenforyou)
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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 12:58:01 AM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The only thing that seperates us is skills. We all come into this world in the same exact manner. We all grow up needing the same exact needs. Life experience and what we learn seperate us into individuals.

But, lets say a surgeon is superior to everyone else because of his talents. That may be so... unless the talent at that moment is for someone who knows how to farm. Unless that surgeon knows how, who is he superior too?

quote:

I don't see how being superior means you live separate from other people.


Being superior means you dont need people, especially people you believe are inferior to yourself. At more than one point in your life, you will need to depend on someone else for something. Those skills that sets you "above" others, someone else taught you. Someone else knows, or knew, more than you. As a result, you could never be superior because someone will always know something more than you, something different than you, something as equally vital and important as you.

Its those different skills, that different knowledge, that prevents anyone from being superior to anyone else.


Why would being superior mean that you wouldn't need people? And, just because you're superior to some people, you could still be equal to other people. And, some people would be superior to you.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 2:03:14 AM   
paulmcuk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkestDezirez

The true believer does not need proof and the non-believer will never have a proof that satisfies them.



I disagree. As a non-believer proof is exactly what I would require and, if it came, I would accept it. It would have to be damn good proof, but I could be convinced by evidence. Say, for example, a big voice heard around the world in all languages saying "I am God and hereafter there will be no more war", following which anyone who tries to start a war turns into a pile of turds. A big ask but not beyond an omnipotent being.

And I would also argue that the true believer not only does not need proof, he does not want it and, if offered, would actively reject it. Of course, it's impossible to prove a negative (i.e. it is impossible to prove there is no Santa Claus) but it is possible to provide a weight of evidence to strongly suggest that the negative (no Santa Claus) is, in fact, the case.

Evolution, which kicked off this thread, is a case in point. While not disproving the existence of god (which, as already stated, is impossible), it nevertheless challenges aspects of faith to the extent that the faithful are forced to either adapt to it and say that evolution is the mechanism by which god created us, or to reject it entirely in favour of biblical literalism. The fact that so many opt to believe the bible in face of the vast amount of scientific evidence that shows evolution (not to mention cosmology, geology etc) to be true, demonstrates my point.

Evolution has become the line in the sand for many religious people (and organisations). The battlefield between science and religion. The notion seems to be that to give way on evolution as, for example, the RC church and Church of England have done (although the new pope seems to be trying to backtrack on that a bit) weakens the church and the faith. Like a nation refusing to surrender a single inch of territory, some people are clinging to Genesis because, if that goes, maybe Liviticus will be next and then where would we be?

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