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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 2:17:18 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyouI'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense

seems you need to work on your own "broader sense"

lol

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
It's your belief that no one is superior to anyone else? What do you base that belief on?

If I may but into your discussion: In Dutch I would say: Alle mensen zijn evenwaardig, maar ze zijn niet gelijkwaardig.

Meaning: All people have equal value, but they are not equally valuable. This may be best demonstrated by the pieces in a game of chess: each piece is an important piece, being members of a pack, but they are not equally important.

Asgardian mythology is clear about the power of humans: The Creator - Odin - is the most powerful.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 2:27:22 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou
quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

The notion of superiority is a fallacy. First, it supposes that you are cut off from the rest of the world, that you live seperate from everyone else. Second, its the arrogance of the assumption that someone actually believes they are better than everyone else.

How would you know you are superior than me? You have never met me, dont know much about me, dont know what my skills are, dont know what I am capable of. Nor do I know these things about you. But here you are, assuming you are superior to me.

What do you base that assumption upon? A few written words on a message board? That drips arrogance on your part.

To believe yourself superior, you would have to live above everyone and everything else. Yet, you are dependent upon the same air everyone else breathes, the same water everyone else drinks, the same sun everyone else has...

Your very existence is because two people who were before you created you.... the same as everyone else. Explain how that makes you superior to anyone else?


I now have sufficient information for a tentative, but likely accurate, diagnosis: he is a narcissist, so yes, it stands to reason that he would consider himself superior - and in some of the aspects he perceives his superiority, he is right. By the measures of non-narcissists, though, in lots of other aspects narcissists are not superior at all.

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Profile   Post #: 562
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 3:11:01 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
As a non-believer proof is exactly what I would require

Proof of what? The existence of the Divine, or of the pagan gods? The first is impossible for the Divine is beyond causality; the Divine - spirituality - can only be experienced, never proven.

The second is entirely possible: simply walk up to a sleeping Satan and kick him in his ribs. Afterwards I will plant flowers on your grave.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
if it came, I would accept it.

Truly? Somehow I doubt that...

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
It would have to be damn good proof, but I could be convinced by evidence. Say, for example, a big voice heard around the world in all languages saying "I am God

I can do that! Listen to my big voice: "I am God." The translation into other languages you've all got to do yourself; there is such a thing as education and translation programmes, after all.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
"hereafter there will be no more war"

I would never say that. Having no wars would be evil. Beware of people who want peace at all costs, for they will permit evil.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
following which anyone who tries to start a war turns into a pile of turds. A big ask but not beyond an omnipotent being.

First of all I am unlikely to do that, and secondly I might do that only when such a person is about to defecate; it would require evaporating everything but the turds in his colon. I have got to say that you give the impression of being a protocolophile, though. Also, it would be far simpler to evaporate the entire person, including his turds; yes, I am going for simplicty, not for the weird notions of a proctocolophile.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
And I would also argue that the true believer not only does not need proof, he does not want it and, if offered, would actively reject it. Of course, it's impossible to prove a negative (i.e. it is impossible to prove there is no Santa Claus) but it is possible to provide a weight of evidence to strongly suggest that the negative (no Santa Claus) is, in fact, the case.

It so happens that Santa Claus does exist - at least in my perception of the concept.

I also note that there is a difference between proof and 'a weight of evidence'. As for myself: I have no interest in proofs - proofs are often proven to be wrong; consult the history of science if you do not believe me. Rather, I am persuaded by the likelihood of truth.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
Evolution. While not disproving the existence of god (which, as already stated, is impossible), it nevertheless challenges aspects of faith to the extent that the faithful are forced to either adapt to it and say that evolution is the mechanism by which god created us, or to reject it entirely in favour of biblical literalism. The fact that so many opt to believe the bible in face of the vast amount of scientific evidence that shows evolution (not to mention cosmology, geology etc) to be true, demonstrates my point.

There is no conflict between the fact of evolution and occurrences as described in Genesis. If such a conflict is perceived, it rather tells something about the perceptive abilities of the perceiver.


< Message edited by Rule -- 5/8/2011 3:15:03 AM >

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 3:12:38 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk

Say, for example, a big voice heard around the world in all languages saying...

"We come in peace."

K.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 4:27:14 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:


I should have chosen my words more carefully. I don't care about the guy down the street specifically. I care about the evolution of society as a whole. I want us to get away from making laws based on something written in a book two thousand years ago.
You do that by keeping religion and state separate. No need to stop religion for that.
State and religion is separate (in the U.S) and still laws are influenced by spiritual thinking.

You need to talk to your reps about that. I have nothing to do with it.

quote:


I want people to actually think about why stealing, murder, rape etc is wrong. Not because it is going to displease some imaginary being in the sky, but because it is counter productive to the human race reaching it's full potential. .
I don't suppose it ever occurred to you that most of us already know that. And I figured it out with out the help of an athiest or theist. Imagine that
I don't know that you know that. And, I certainly don't know that "most" people know that.

And yet in the sentence above you claim to know they don't. Interesting. Anything else you have claimed that you now want to admit, you really didn't understand?

quote:


I'm interested in getting that kind of thinking into the collective consciousness. I don't think I'm going change anyone's mind who is fully invested in spirituality. I'm hoping to reach people who are on the fence. People who are still thinking about the world in a broader sense.
Yea, good luck with that. Maybe you guys could give the tv evangelical route a try. It seems to have worked for some in the past.
Nope, we'll just keep teaching science, math, ethics, and philosophy. As time goes on religion will fall away on it's own as it is in the process of doing. 

Like I said before, good luck with that. Religion has been around for a long time and I don't see it going anywhere real soon.





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Profile   Post #: 565
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 4:32:51 AM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn




quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No, I think that people are motivated by self interest. But, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think that most people think about why certain actions have been made criminal. Only, that they are wrong and/or forbidden by their beliefs.





I agree that some people believe that they know what the other side is thinking.I try not to do that. I'm not one of the militant atheist that believes religion has been the cause of all the wars and misery on this planet. In fact, quite the opposite. I believe religion has been the single most important factor in the evolution of societies. Also, the "religious feeling," that Einstein talks about, is what brings about the yearning to know. I just think that eventually humans will grow past the need to fill in the blank with the supernatural.



Try a little harder next time.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 7:34:47 AM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
[...] [I]sn't the real issue here the power that flows from holding a monopoly on truth, from being in a position to dictate what counts as truth in the public sphere? Isn't this a contest for power between two competing truth-production discourses/systems?

[...] [I]t’s about social and political power that flows from being in a position to pronounce Truth, to control the discourses and knowledges circulating in the public sphere.

Agreed, and very well put!  These issues are much more significant -- and even urgent -- for human society, then the question of the existence of God which, in this context, is irrelevant (although it can be great fun to debate!).

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 7:56:50 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Why would being superior mean that you wouldn't need people? And, just because you're superior to some people, you could still be equal to other people. And, some people would be superior to you.


Why would someone who is superior need inferior people around him?

Being superior, or inferior, implies you know the skill sets and knowledge of everyone. I have quite a diverse background, as do many other people. In the example of the surgeon, he/she would be superior in a hospital or emergency setting... but only if it entails his/her skills. An orthopedic surgeon would be lost in cardiac surgery. A highly skilled mechanic would be lost in a brokerage firm.

None of us live in a bubble. We, everyone, requires the assitance of someone else. That belies the superiority belief. We were not discussing if someone is better than the next person. We were discussing humans as a whole. If, as a human being, you require the help of someone else, you are not superior.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 8:07:22 AM   
DarkestDezirez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk

Say, for example, a big voice heard around the world in all languages saying...

"We come in peace."

K.


Klaatu barada nikto.

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Profile   Post #: 569
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 9:07:13 AM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
[...] [I]sn't the real issue here the power that flows from holding a monopoly on truth, from being in a position to dictate what counts as truth in the public sphere? Isn't this a contest for power between two competing truth-production discourses/systems?

[...] [I]t’s about social and political power that flows from being in a position to pronounce Truth, to control the discourses and knowledges circulating in the public sphere.

Agreed, and very well put! These issues are much more significant -- and even urgent -- for human society, then the question of the existence of God which, in this context, is irrelevant (although it can be great fun to debate!).

They may be significant issues, but they have absolutely no inherent connection to religion per se. There is a tendency for these threads to take Christianity in general, evangelical Christianity especially, and Biblical literalism in particular as their working examples, and to engage in broad sweeping statements about religion that are simply ignorant nonsense.

To wit, the following examples of how "Creationism" and the notion of a "God" who doesn't like people who don't worship him play elsewhere (my emphasis):

From the Rig Veda...
    Who truly knows, who can honestly say where.
    This universe cam from
    And where it will vanish to at the End?
    Those godlike wise men who claim they know were born long
    After the birth of Creation.
    Who then could know where our universe really came from?
From the Bhagavad Gita...
    I am the beginning, the middle, and the end of all things.
    I am the consciousness of beings; and of knowledge, the knowledge of the supreme.
    I am the same in all; there are none who are disliked or favorites to Me.
The same applies to the "religion versus science" debate. It is no coincidence that the statue below (photo from unveiling in 2004) was chosen to grace the courtyard at the European Organization for Nuclear Research (CERN).



It is, of course, Shiva... the Destroyer of illusion and falsehood.

K.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 12:00:40 PM   
paulmcuk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Proof of what? The existence of the Divine, or of the pagan gods? The first is impossible for the Divine is beyond causality; the Divine - spirituality - can only be experienced, never proven.



Proof of any god that has ever been claimed to exist. If your divine is a god, then proof of that. If your divine is a god, are you saying it is incapable of proving its existence? If so, in what sense is it a god? Indeed, what is the point of it at all?

If your divine is not a god and merely a way of thinking, then it is irrelevant. I'm talking about gods and others need not apply.

The biblical god provided proof of his existence all the time. Floods, burning bushes etc. Why do the ancients get proof but somehow we're supposed to rely on faith alone?

quote:



ORIGINAL: Rule

The second is entirely possible: simply walk up to a sleeping Satan and kick him in his ribs. Afterwards I will plant flowers on your grave.



Point one out to me and I will happily comnply. Of course, I'd need proof that he actually IS satan - wouldn't want to go kicking some poor guy in the ribs if he wasn't a fallen angel created by an omnipotent/omniscient god who somehow failed to foresee that he would go bad but who conveniently provides a bogeyman to scare people into worshipping said god.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk

if it came, I would accept it.



Truly? Somehow I doubt that...



Hey, I'm all about the evidence.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
It would have to be damn good proof, but I could be convinced by evidence. Say, for example, a big voice heard around the world in all languages saying "I am God

I can do that! Listen to my big voice: "I am God." The translation into other languages you've all got to do yourself; there is such a thing as education and translation programmes, after all.


1. Couldn't hear you.
2. Any god worthy of the name could do the translation himself. As you say, you can get an app for your iPhone that will do translations nowadays. With the advance of science, god really has to step up his game to impress people.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Having no wars would be evil. Beware of people who want peace at all costs, for they will permit evil.



NOW you sound like the god of the bible. He was all for a bit of genocide as I recall.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

First of all I am unlikely to do that, and secondly I might do that only when such a person is about to defecate; it would require evaporating everything but the turds in his colon. I have got to say that you give the impression of being a protocolophile, though. Also, it would be far simpler to evaporate the entire person, including his turds; yes, I am going for simplicty, not for the weird notions of a proctocolophile.



It was merely an example. I'm more than happy for a god to use its imagination when providing proof of its existence. But I have to say that some of things offered recently as proof of god's existence - such as a Tsunami hitting Japan - don't really cut it for me. It's a bit cryptic and open to interpretation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

It so happens that Santa Claus does exist - at least in my perception of the concept.



A reasonable definition of religious faith.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

I have no interest in proofs - proofs are often proven to be wrong; consult the history of science if you do not believe me. Rather, I am persuaded by the likelihood of truth.



Still waiting of that law of gravity to be repealed, huh? Science moves on with the accumulation of new knowledge. If you don't use knowledge to judge the likelihood of truth, what do you use?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
Evolution. While not disproving the existence of god (which, as already stated, is impossible), it nevertheless challenges aspects of faith to the extent that the faithful are forced to either adapt to it and say that evolution is the mechanism by which god created us, or to reject it entirely in favour of biblical literalism. The fact that so many opt to believe the bible in face of the vast amount of scientific evidence that shows evolution (not to mention cosmology, geology etc) to be true, demonstrates my point.

There is no conflict between the fact of evolution and occurrences as described in Genesis. If such a conflict is perceived, it rather tells something about the perceptive abilities of the perceiver.



I believe that was, more or less, my point. Biblical literalists may disagree with you.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 12:46:57 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn




quote:

ORIGINAL: lickenforyou

No, I think that people are motivated by self interest. But, that's not what I was talking about. I was saying that I don't think that most people think about why certain actions have been made criminal. Only, that they are wrong and/or forbidden by their beliefs.





I agree that some people believe that they know what the other side is thinking.I try not to do that. I'm not one of the militant atheist that believes religion has been the cause of all the wars and misery on this planet. In fact, quite the opposite. I believe religion has been the single most important factor in the evolution of societies. Also, the "religious feeling," that Einstein talks about, is what brings about the yearning to know. I just think that eventually humans will grow past the need to fill in the blank with the supernatural.



Try a little harder next time.



You really need to work on comprehending what you read.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 12:47:28 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		Um, I lost an extensive reply to your first three paragraphs. I got some weird small collarme forum window instead. Perchance it was due to Divine intervention?

Whatever, I am going to watch Spiderman 3; I missed too much of it already. Spidey just saved Gwen.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 12:52:55 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
Point one out to me and I will happily comply. Of course, I'd need proof that he actually IS satan - wouldn't want to go kicking some poor guy in the ribs if he wasn't a fallen angel created by an omnipotent/omniscient god who somehow failed to foresee that he would go bad but who conveniently provides a bogeyman to scare people into worshiping said god.

Hey, find your own! You will get your proof after you have kicked him in the ribs. Just ask your loved ones to send me a note after you died.

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Profile   Post #: 574
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 1:09:29 PM   
thishereboi


Posts: 14463
Joined: 6/19/2008
Status: offline 		Well lets review. In the first quote you tell us what you think "most people are thinking"

then in the second one you talk about people who claim to know what others are thinking and claim you don't do that.

Seems pretty simple to me.


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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 1:11:00 PM   
paulmcuk


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

Um, I lost an extensive reply to your first three paragraphs. I got some weird small collarme forum window instead. Perchance it was due to Divine intervention?

Whatever, I am going to watch Spiderman 3; I missed too much of it already. Spidey just saved Gwen.


I'm watching X-Men 2 but haven't been paying attention so not sure what's happening. Stryker has got into Cerebro, but I don't know why.

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Profile   Post #: 576
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 1:15:08 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
if it came, I would accept it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
Truly? Somehow I doubt that...

Hey, I'm all about the evidence.

Pff, I provided you with exactly the evidence you wished for: "a big voice heard around the world in all languages saying "I am God". And how did you respond? Thusly:

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I can do that! Listen to my big voice: "I am God."


1. Couldn't hear you.

I guess that you cannot read the transcript of a court session either?

You cannot hear nor see / read. There is no satisfying you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
2. Any god worthy of the name could do the translation himself. As you say, you can get an app for your iPhone that will do translations nowadays.

So you admit that I am god (as I can do that)? Revelation is upon you! Rejoice!

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
With the advance of science, god really has to step up his game to impress people.

Are you talking about me? I will have you know that I have two admirers. (Though I have not heard from them in years.)

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Profile   Post #: 577
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 1:23:16 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
NOW you sound like the god of the bible. He was all for a bit of genocide as I recall.

Quite. Poor sucker. He had it bad. But then pagan gods are more subject to the Divine than ordinary mortals.

In any case, it is impossible to convert animals. Consequently the only way to introduce religious progress is to have those killed who cannot / refuse to convert.

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Profile   Post #: 578
RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 1:37:34 PM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
I'm more than happy for a god to use its imagination when providing proof of its existence.

The Divine manifests its existence daily. Lots of people are aware of it. Why aren't you, grasshopper? (That was a reference to the 70s series Kung Fu.)

Actually what is in question is not the Divine's imagination, but yours in discerning the Divine.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulmcuk
But I have to say that some of things offered recently as proof of god's existence - such as a Tsunami hitting Japan - don't really cut it for me. It's a bit cryptic and open to interpretation.

That is because you assume volition on the part of the Divine. There is none. Only the inhabitants of our universe have volition or some kind of analogue. I dunno, but perchance even rocks have some rudimentary volition; they fall, don't they, obeying universal laws.

Most events that occur are simply automatic programs that routinely run for dozens, hundreds or billions of years already.

Moreover, in qubit calculations numerous if not billions of considerations are involved simultaneously. It is hard to second guess that.

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RE: Evolution vs. Religion - 5/8/2011 1:45:16 PM   
lickenforyou


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Well lets review. In the first quote you tell us what you think "most people are thinking"

then in the second one you talk about people who claim to know what others are thinking and claim you don't do that.

Seems pretty simple to me.



I'm not going to rehash the whole discussion. So, the first word that I want you to look up is context. Then I want you to look up, then compare and contrast, the words think and know. No need to turn in your homework. We're discussing ideas here, not minutiae.


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