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Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 9:50:59 AM   
Thirsty4Goddess


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Status: offline 		This is one that always fascinated me, how can anyone over the age of six accept a literal interpretation of this story?

Asuume that a 600 year old man is able to somehow collect a breeding pair from every animal in the world, transport them to the middle east and house them without them killing and eating each other.

The Ark was supposed to be 300 cubits long 50 cubits wide and 30 cubits tall. A cubit is the length of a person's forearm, or somewhere between a foot to 18". So the surface area of the deck would have been about the size of a football field.

So two of every animal that survived the flood where housed in an area of three football fields? Really?

And of course anybody that has raised animals knows that one breeding pair is not a viable population. All of the animalsl offspring would be have to be breed with siblings. Such inbreeding would have had disastrous consequences.

Then of course after the water subsided, Noah woould have to transport them back to where they came from. And the carnivorous animals would have to survive until the prey species had reproduced enough. So they would have in many cases go for a year without food.

I am curious how believers reconcile such impossibilities?




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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 10:06:30 AM   
Rule


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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 10:17:08 AM   
hlen5


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Status: offline 		Nearly every religion I know of has a flood story. Judaism, Christianity, the Navaho religion, Greek/Roman mythology and a story I remember reading from Children's Digest. I don't know which nation in Africa the story was from, but it was a flood story too.

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 10:21:57 AM   
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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 10:37:19 AM   
littlewonder


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Status: offline 		keep in mind that at the time the story was written it was what they thought to be a worldwide flood...their world, their localised area was the world to them so to collect two of every animal there would probably been a little difficult but not impossible nor would building a boat of that size.




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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 10:39:20 AM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Nearly every religion I know of has a flood story. Judaism, Christianity, the Navaho religion, Greek/Roman mythology and a story I remember reading from Children's Digest. I don't know which nation in Africa the story was from, but it was a flood story too.

So, a question is, what purpose do these flood myths serve in human cultures?  What truths do they express?  That there is a cycle of purification and renewal, certainly.

It's most interesting that Noah was given the responsibility for preserving the earth's creatures.

(Btw, the least interesting question to me about the biblical flood myth is whether it is historically true.)

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 11:22:48 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5
Nearly every religion I know of has a flood story. Judaism, Christianity, the Navaho religion, Greek/Roman mythology and a story I remember reading from Children's Digest. I don't know which nation in Africa the story was from, but it was a flood story too.

So, a question is, what purpose do these flood myths serve in human cultures?  What truths do they express?  That there is a cycle of purification and renewal, certainly.

It's most interesting that Noah was given the responsibility for preserving the earth's creatures.

(Btw, the least interesting question to me about the biblical flood myth is whether it is historically true.)


Actually its a lot simpler than that. Early cultures that developed agricultural, cities and writing did so along rivers. Rivers flood. People tell stories about big events. People exagerate.

For instance the Noachian flood is derived from the Gilgamesh flood myth which is in turn derived from the Atra-Hasis flood myth.

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 11:58:26 AM   
Thirsty4Goddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Nearly every religion I know of has a flood story. Judaism, Christianity, the Navaho religion, Greek/Roman mythology and a story I remember reading from Children's Digest. I don't know which nation in Africa the story was from, but it was a flood story too.


Of course, all of the early centers of civilization were located in river deltas or flood planes. It is no surprise that every culture has a flood story.

The Bible is a treasure of cultural icons and identity, however, many Christians insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible.
I have met people that believe the myth literally, they believe that the flood covered the entire planet and that Noah saved every existing animal species. Many creationsts even believe that the dinosaurs were killed off in the flood of the Noah story.

My curiosity is how those people reconcile metaphorical Bible stories such as the great flood with a strict literal interpretation.



< Message edited by Thirsty4Goddess -- 4/24/2011 11:59:51 AM >

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 12:10:48 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

many Christians insist on a literal interpretation of the


Many? At best, 1/3... and that depends on factors such as education, geographical area, and age. But even that is circumspect in relationship to those who actually answer phone surveys.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/27682/OneThird-Americans-Believe-Bible-Literally-True.aspx

quote:

I have met people that believe the myth literally, they believe that the flood covered the entire planet and that Noah saved every existing animal species. Many creationsts even believe that the dinosaurs were killed off in the flood of the Noah story.


I have met people that believe tg's are insane. That doesnt mean "many" people believe that, only those few I have met.

What you are describing is Young Earth Creationists... Its adherents are Christians and Jews who believe that God created the Earth in six 24-hour days, taking a literal interpretation of the Genesis creation narrative as a basis for their beliefs

.........

Anywhere from 10 to 45% of adults in the United States say they believe in YEC, depending on the poll.[11] According to a Gallup poll in December 2010, around 40% of Americans believe in YEC, rising to over 50% among Republicans but falling quickly as the level of education increases; only 22% of respondents with postgraduate degrees believed compared with 47% of those with a high school education or less.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Earth_creationism





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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 12:13:14 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thirsty4Goddess

quote:

ORIGINAL: hlen5

Nearly every religion I know of has a flood story. Judaism, Christianity, the Navaho religion, Greek/Roman mythology and a story I remember reading from Children's Digest. I don't know which nation in Africa the story was from, but it was a flood story too.


Of course, all of the early centers of civilization were located in river deltas or flood planes. It is no surprise that every culture has a flood story.

The Bible is a treasure of cultural icons and identity, however, many Christians insist on a literal interpretation of the Bible.
I have met people that believe the myth literally, they believe that the flood covered the entire planet and that Noah saved every existing animal species. Many creationsts even believe that the dinosaurs were killed off in the flood of the Noah story.

My curiosity is how those people reconcile metaphorical Bible stories such as the great flood with a strict literal interpretation.




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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 12:17:46 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Thirsty4Goddess

My curiosity is how those people reconcile metaphorical Bible stories such as the great flood with a strict literal interpretation.




With a precise blending of blind faith and intellectual dishonesty.



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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 12:27:16 PM   
johnxinxscruz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz
So, a question is, what purpose do these flood myths serve in human cultures?


Actually its a lot simpler than that. Early cultures that developed agricultural, cities and writing did so along rivers. Rivers flood. People tell stories about big events. People exagerate.

For instance the Noachian flood is derived from the Gilgamesh flood myth which is in turn derived from the Atra-Hasis flood myth.


What you just described is not a purpose, but an origin.

Every story has an origin ... but we don't remember them for 1000's of years just for that. They have to serve a purpose. Otherwise, we don't keep passing them on from generation to generation.

The biblical flood story serves a few purposes:

1) answering the question of what happened to the antediluvian cultures that the Bible talks about (the children of the daughters of men and the Nephilim, or whatever became of Cain and his line, etc.). Easy: they were wiped out by the flood. No need to go looking for them, because you can't. They're gone.

2) expressing god's full wrath, and judgement -- if we become a "wicked" civilization, god is capable of just deciding to wipe the slate completely clean.

3) expressing god's mercy -- the promise not to do it again; even if he is once again completely disappointed by us, and we know he has the power to wipe the slate clean again ... he promised not to. And we're reminded of that, every time it rains, with a rainbow.

4) promising that even when lost among the wicked, the righteous will be rewarded by their higher power ... so don't give in to wickedness of society, for you'll be rewarded by God in some way, in the future. If nothing else, you wont be wiped out by the next act of God's wrath (just like Noah wasn't, and Lot wasn't).


Those are the reasons the story survives, as they communicate within Judaism and Christianity, lessons that are important to that institution.

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 2:42:18 PM   
liks2plzlf


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Status: offline 		If you don't believe in God, then it belongs in Grimms Fairytales. If you believe in God, who created the whole universe, how hard would an arc and a flood be?

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 3:50:42 PM   
hlen5


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quote:

ORIGINAL: liks2plzlf

If you don't believe in God, then it belongs in Grimms Fairytales. If you believe in God, who created the whole universe, how hard would an arc and a flood be?


Very pragmatic!!


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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 3:53:04 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: liks2plzlf

If you don't believe in God, then it belongs in Grimms Fairytales. If you believe in God, who created the whole universe, how hard would an arc and a flood be?

One that left no physical evidence and was not noticed by either the Egyptian nor the Chinese civilizations who both had writing by the supposed time of the flood and have records that completely fail any such thing and continue without interuption throughout the period?

Yes, you can say your god did it and then poofed away all evidence or memory of the event but why would anyone worship a diety that deceives like that?

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 4:25:13 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		The earliest flood myth on record is in the Epic of Gilgamesh that is dated to the earliest human writing, which puts the date at 2700BCE.

The epic is based on oral traditions that predate human writing.

These traditions which are far older. Many scholars believe that the origins of these oral traditions are based on one if not both actual flooding events involving the Black Sea and the flooding of the lower Tigris Euphrates valley by a rapid rise in sea level following an overflow of a land bridge in the Persian gulf and the Mediterranean sea of a sill in the eastern end of the Bosporus Strait.

The Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus Strait.

The Persian Gulf was an entirely dry basin about 15,000 BC.

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 4:36:10 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: liks2plzlf
If you don't believe in God, then it belongs in Grimms Fairytales.

Fairytales, folktales, myths, and metaphor are rich, expressive modes for conveying truths -- or at least worldviews -- about human nature, society, God (or gods), the natural world, their interrelationships, and how to navigate them safely.  And most economical, too, for cultures relying primarily on oral transmission of knowledge.

The bible contains myths and archetypes which are very powerful, independent of a belief in God.

I had an art history teacher who taught that the Bible and Ovid were essential texts for understanding Western art.

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 4:47:46 PM   
eihwaz


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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thirsty4Goddess
My curiosity is how those people reconcile metaphorical Bible stories such as the great flood with a strict literal interpretation.

With a precise blending of blind faith and intellectual dishonesty.

On the current Evolution thread, someone posted a link to  the Sceptic's Annotated Bible which includes links to examples of literalist apologetics.

I'm curious about why some feel it necessary to insist on a strict biblical literalism.

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 5:07:18 PM   
Kirata


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

was not noticed by either the Egyptian nor the Chinese civilizations...

Egyptian:

Ra was warned by the Watery Abyss that humans had grown too rebellious, so he took Hathor and ordered her to punish the people.

Hathor went to earth and slew millions of humans. The streets of the town of Chetenuten began to run like a river with blood because of her horrific endeavour. So much blood drained into the Nile that it overflowed the riverbanks, and the bloody water flooded the land, destroying everything. This water eventually ran into the sea, which overflowed as well. Hathor began drinking this horrible mixture of blood and water.

Ra was displeased with Hathor's work, as he had only wanted to punish, and not destroy, the human race. So he asked Thoth, the wisest God, for help. He then told the Goddess Sektet to mix together dada, fruit and barley to make beer. The beer was then to be mixed with human blood, in the hopes that it would attract Hathor.

Ra's servents were then ordered to pour out the mixture on the remaining land near Hathor. The beer became a great sea, and Hathor was drawn to it by the smell of the blood. She drank the beer until she was so intoxicated that she staggered off to sleep, leaving the last few humans behind.

From those humans, earth was repopulated.

Various (but similiar) versions can be found on the web, the above one being from here.

Chinese:

A kite once quarrelled with the crab and pecked a hole in its skull (which can still be seen today). In revenge, the crab caused the sea and rivers to swell until the waters reached the sky. The only survivors were a brother and sister who took a pair of all kinds of animals with them in a huge chest. They floated for seven days and nights. Then the brother heard a cock crowing outside, sent by the spirits to signal that the flood had abated. All disembarked, birds first, then the animals, then the two people. The brother and sister did not know how they would live, for they had eaten all the rice that was stored in the chest. However, a black ant brought two grains of rice. The brother planted them, and the plain was covered with a rice crop the next morning.

Another Chinese flood story in which a brother and sister survive is amusing for the tricks the brother must engage in to get his very proper sister to agree to sleep with him so the land can be repopulated.

The first Chinese myth above is from a very large survey of flood myths, indexed by region, which can be found here.

K.

< Message edited by Kirata -- 4/24/2011 5:13:13 PM >

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RE: Biblical Myth: Noah's Ark - 4/24/2011 6:31:22 PM   
TheHeretic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: eihwaz

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
quote:

ORIGINAL: Thirsty4Goddess
My curiosity is how those people reconcile metaphorical Bible stories such as the great flood with a strict literal interpretation.

With a precise blending of blind faith and intellectual dishonesty.

On the current Evolution thread, someone posted a link to  the Sceptic's Annotated Bible which includes links to examples of literalist apologetics.

I'm curious about why some feel it necessary to insist on a strict biblical literalism.




If you meant, "why," then you shouldn't have asked, "how," as highlighted above.

This is the dogma that provides them with answers and comfort in a big scary world, and faith can be a very powerful thing.

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