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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Although I will probably regret this, I am going to comment. First of all I need to say, that contempt is much too strong a word for what I feel. I have absolutely no "odd" feeling about submissive men who submit to other men, that "feels" fine to me. However because of my beliefs/feelings as a submissive woman about desiring and wanting a strong Man to lead and submit to, it feels "off" to me when I see some submissive men who submit to women. There are some that I can still see a sense of strength who choose to submit from a positional of internal strength, and there are others who submit for an entirely different reason. The latter is what "feels" wrong or off to me. Now that I am typing, it may be just the position where someone submits from, because I don't seem to have a great deal of women who submit from a place of weakness and not of strength either.

Having said this, I am ready for the onslaught.

heartfelt

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Although I will probably regret this, I am going to comment. First of all I need to say, that contempt is much too strong a word for what I feel. I have absolutely no "odd" feeling about submissive men who submit to other men, that "feels" fine to me. However because of my beliefs/feelings as a submissive woman about desiring and wanting a strong Man to lead and submit to, it feels "off" to me when I see some submissive men who submit to women. There are some that I can still see a sense of strength who choose to submit from a position of internal strength, and there are others who submit for an entirely different reason. The latter is what "feels" wrong or off to me. Now that I am typing, it may be just the position where someone submits from, because I don't seem to have a great deal of women who submit from a place of weakness and not of strength either.

Having said this, I am ready for the onslaught.

heartfelt

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
what i want to know is why you give a shit

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ORIGINAL: AneNoz

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Herein lies the flaw: I have all of nature to support my position. But what have you? What is unnatural about dominance inherent with maleness?

What have I? Very little, just all of nature, reality, reason, and common sense. There simply is no inherent dominance in maleness or femaleness. Dominance is a personal attribute, it is not a function of gender. Male and female are equal, they are complimentary principles.

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Ah, now I understand, you are the one who claims self righteous reason while using my rhetorical question to justify name calling.

It is not name calling if it is truth.

Be at peace
Aneka

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub
Having said this, I am ready for the onslaught.

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maybe hannah had crappy beanz for breakfast too

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ORIGINAL: PeonForHer

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ORIGINAL: leadership527
You apparently. That is, in fact, my big mystery in all the "natural order" thing. If I want to know about ants and their habits, then I look at what ants actually do. If I want to look at wolves and their habits, then I look at what wolves actually do. If I want to look at humans and their habits, then I look at what humans actually do. And in our case, what we naturally do is build great big complex and incredibly intricate societies. I don't think society is against the natural order. I think it IS the natural order. How can one think anything else without going to made up theoretical humans?

Third, who does not believe nature has an uncompromising order?
Well now that's a pretty damned vague statement. Do you mean an order of dominance? Well sort of yeah... But the idea that it is strongly gender linked and/or it's static doesn't conform with my observations of actual behavior, either human or otherwise. And, again, I try to make sure my theoretical hypothesis actually line up with the real world experimental data.

Finally, it is clear the the natural order is not just "a gorean thing" but is a "everybody thing".
I disagree. As I noted above, I have no such concept that might be profitably applied to men and women. In fact, I find all such statements to fly in the face of all observational data. Even more interestingly, they typically rely on that time-honored tradition of ignoring any data which doesn't support the preconceived conclusion -- in this case tossing out the entirety of humanity and all of our works as "not-natural" for no particular reason. Tossing out the entire sample set seems... well... a bit risky when forming conclusions.

Nicely said.

For me, a double balls-up is involved. First, a deluded person - let us call him 'Cretin' - will project onto non-human-nature the qualities that he wants to see in it. Then, he'll 'read off' those qualities in such a way that they'll confirm his own views of human society.

Arturas doesn't go all the way with his view of 'natural versus unnatural'. He says, in effect, that what other creatures don't do (allow him his personal selection of creatures, for the sake of argument - gorillas, but not bonobo monkeys or hyenas, for instance) - and say that *all* those things that other animals don't do, but which humans do, are 'unnatural'.

In which case, we're pretty damned screwed, so far as I can see. Cooking food is unnatural; driving cars, wearing clothes, cleaning one's teeth, washing with soap, using underarm deodorant - all these things are 'unnatural'. So is reasoning. And talking. And writing, including writing on this forum.

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather

It seems I'm the only non-Domme who thinks this way, but I think male subs are HOT!! Thinking of one crawling to and grovelling in front of a woman..well...whew must fan myself.

Heather

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
I feel just a slight bit of oddness about seeing a woman Dominate a man.  But seeing a man Dominate another man just feels somewhat wrong to me.

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Although I will probably regret this, I am going to comment. First of all I need to say, that contempt is much too strong a word for what I feel. I have absolutely no "odd" feeling about submissive men who submit to other men, that "feels" fine to me. However because of my beliefs/feelings as a submissive woman about desiring and wanting a strong Man to lead and submit to, it feels "off" to me when I see some submissive men who submit to women. There are some that I can still see a sense of strength who choose to submit from a position of internal strength, and there are others who submit for an entirely different reason. The latter is what "feels" wrong or off to me. Now that I am typing, it may be just the position where someone submits from, because I don't seem to have a great deal of women who submit from a place of weakness and not of strength either.

Having said this, I am ready for the onslaught.

heartfelt

That's odd.  I have no issue seeing a man Dominate a woman, or a woman Dominate another woman.  I feel just a slight bit of oddness about seeing a woman Dominate a man.  But seeing a man Dominate another man just feels somewhat wrong to me.

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ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss
I'm sure you're not the only one... in fact, I have it on good authority that you're not. Do you think Peon has that photo up for nothing? pfffffffft.

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Just a little political point, and to all: I do hope everyone realises that we, all of us, are regularly on the arse end of contempt by the majority, which is vanilla

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

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ORIGINAL: heartfeltsub

Although I will probably regret this, I am going to comment. First of all I need to say, that contempt is much too strong a word for what I feel. I have absolutely no "odd" feeling about submissive men who submit to other men, that "feels" fine to me. However because of my beliefs/feelings as a submissive woman about desiring and wanting a strong Man to lead and submit to, it feels "off" to me when I see some submissive men who submit to women. There are some that I can still see a sense of strength who choose to submit from a position of internal strength, and there are others who submit for an entirely different reason. The latter is what "feels" wrong or off to me. Now that I am typing, it may be just the position where someone submits from, because I don't seem to have a great deal of women who submit from a place of weakness and not of strength either.

Having said this, I am ready for the onslaught.

heartfelt

But is it any different than the oddness of watching someone eat something that you literally can't swallow? Because as a submissive woman, the idea of dominating a man seems odd to me. But so does than the idea of eating a raw oyster. I know many people love them but literally my throat feels like it's swelling shut if someone tries to push one on me. And that's how I feel at the idea of being required to dominate or even top people.

It's unnatural to me, but so what? So are raw oysters in my view of the world. It doesn't mean I have contempt for those who can eat them. The opposite, I know it's a great delicacy that I'm unable to share. And topping others is something that many people have a great deal of fun with, something I will never be able to enjoy.


_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!

(in reply to heartfeltsub)

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ORIGINAL: ranja

i believe many people measure with very flexible rulers
contempt is contempt... apparently there must be some jealousy and fear involved

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ORIGINAL: DarkSteven
That's odd. I have no issue seeing a man Dominate a woman, or a woman Dominate another woman. I feel just a slight bit of oddness about seeing a woman Dominate a man. But seeing a man Dominate another man just feels somewhat wrong to me.

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ORIGINAL: HannahLynHeather
It seems I'm the only non-Domme who thinks this way, but I think male subs are HOT!! Thinking of one crawling to and grovelling in front of a woman..well...whew must fan myself.

Heather

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ORIGINAL: Zonie63
I'm still trying to get a handle on the subject matter of this thread. Specifically, I'm wondering just how consistent this idea is and whether it continues outside of domestic relations and across society in general.

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For example, I once had a discussion with a guy who believed that Western Civilization fell into decline when women got the right to vote. Has our country been emasculated as a result of this? Is the United Kingdom a wimpy country because they have a Queen and (at one time) a female PM? Is the U.S. military weaker because some command roles are held by women?

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Does this "contempt" (or whatever one may wish to call it) extend to the typical mainstream male, who is often presented as a henpecked buffoon in popular culture?

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I'm just trying to gain information here, because there are ideas being presented in this thread which I'm trying to reconcile both in terms of natural law, human history, and the general tendencies and perceptions of the modern world.