|
sunshinemiss -> RE: Do you have contempt for submissive males? (5/6/2011 8:01:54 PM)
|
Editing to deal with quote boxes... grrr....
My original quote is in red. Awareness is in Black. My response to this point is in [:)] green.
The clique thing - people gravitate toward one another for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that people are social beings. You do the same thing, so let's just keep this in perspective. Some people like each other, some don't. Often the reality is somewhere in between. And while I make no secret that I respect LadyPact, and she has some warm feelings toward me as well, it doesn't change that we disagree - fairly vehemently at times. It is the respect that underpins the interaction that keeps things real for me.
To a certain extent, respect is easy when there's a fundamentally similar foundation. When the world-views are radically different, it requires a different level of intellectual honesty to overcome our native xenophobia.
As an example, consider the interaction between Islamic peoples and those from Western democracies. Fuelled by recent tensions, those widely divergent world-views - especially for quite devout Islamic peoples - can have a good deal of trouble reaching an accord of mutual respect. And in a wider context, it's quite difficult because both Islam itself and Western hegemony are quite effective cultural imperialists. They both absorb cultures of lesser strength than theirs.
[:)]I can see that. I've not experienced it, but I understand it. What is troubling is that in fact the groups / religions / countries actually DON'T have widely divergent world view. The view that is the problem is "We are the chosen people" which is a common denominator in the conflicts - but this is not a Pol and Rel forum, so I will choose to not digress too far from the point (for now).
I don't think it is true that "most people have contempt for racists." In fact, that's an interesting question. It would mean most people have contempt for themselves, for we are all "-ist" to some degree. Even the people who work toward greater understanding, who do their best to eliminate the tiniest kernels of prejudice in themselves are often able to maintain a certain understanding for people who are not able / choose not to eliminate it in themselves. That is not contempt, it is compassion, and it has to do with culture, time, age, and a myriad of other factors.
You're playing a bit of a semantic game here. When most people describe another as 'racist' they mean that the individual they're describing has a level of xenophobia which greatly exceeds their own. Like many things, it's a subjective judgment. However the important distinction here is that the purpose of language is to communicate - something it achieves with varying degrees of accuracy - not define. Language communicates an idea and it's only with a great deal of difficulty that we can use it to define something with any degree of accuracy. Witness the complexity of legal contracts or the restricted symbology of mathematics.
[:)]Ahh, how I could get lost in debating each of those points! Again, I will try to be succinct and not stray too far. I think we are talking appleas and orange (perhaps?) I'm looking at behaviors and using them to alter thoughts/ feelings. There is a TED talk about this communication thing that I saw recently. When I have a moment I will look for it. I think it backs up what you are saying (not that you need that, but perhaps you would enjoy it).
To bring it back to the question at hand, submissive men versus dominant men - the us vs them scenario set up within the OP. What is confusing(?) for me is this. I see the two very much in the same way. You (men, not you specifically) are men. You are socialized in similar ways, your brains and bodies work in similar ways, your goals are similar. Where is room for contempt? You both want to care for your women, you both want to be loved/admired/respected. You both want work that fulfills you. You both want to enjoy your partners. You both want your sexuality acknowledge, honored and celebrated. You want to be and be acknowledged as MEN. You want to feel and think and behave as loving men. That one man finds pleasure by pleasuring another is not that different than another man finding pleasure by being pleasured by another. That the roles can be reversed in action is neither here nor there - dominant men do in fact give, submissive men do in fact take. The fundamental difference, the ONLY difference as I see it (of course I'm a woman and with a strikingly different perspective) is the person who makes the final decision. That's it. To me that doesn't seem like a world of difference. Dominant men follow other men (and women). Submissive men lead other men (and women). To my mind - and I could be wrong - this is not a place for contempt so much as an understanding that there are different places on the same continuum, and each group generally clusters at one end or the other. Don't both of you want to be in relation with your women in a way that pleases you and your partner?
Even if you wish to have nothing more to do with it, let me quote Syl and the Quote of the Day here, "The last person I'm going to ask for permission is Random Generic Dude on the internet" to stop discussing something that is a topic that interests me.
Sometimes people speak with their ego instead of their brain. Given that most threads are founded upon conflict, if the only advocate for one particular side of that conflict decides they've had enough, the resulting chorus of agreement is unlikely to produce an edifying discussion. You might enjoy mutual admiration societies, but I find them insipid.
[:)]Oh, I've no need for simply mutual admiration societies - mutual respect yes (I may be splitting hairs, but to my mind it is an important distinction). I have great respect for a number of people I WHOLEHEARTEDLY disagree with. I don't want to stop the debate. How ever will I clarify my own viewpoint? How will I learn? How will I teach others if all I do is say, "oh yes, yes yes." It's true, if we all agree, what fun is that? How can we possibly interact in any but the most shallow of ways?
I understand that I have blind spots in certain areas. There are certain groups of people that yes, I have tremendous dislike for and lack of patience around. However, it does not lie on their orientation so much as their decisions. Orientation just is. It can't be changed. All that can be changed is our acceptance of it. Decisions, on the other hand, we have control over. They can be altered. That is perhaps where I make a distinction.
best,
sunshine
|
|
|
|
