Racism and the 'black bull'

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Palliata -> Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 5:30:05 AM)
Ok this came to mind from the other thread on black dominants. Why is it that black tops, especially service tops, are so fetishized? You see huge numbers of white cuckold fantasies which include (usually muscular, violent, well-endowed) black men using and abusing an attached white woman. They're rarely characterized beyond "masculine and condescending" and don't really exist as living, breathing human beings, but instead as figureheads for white desire. I've never seen the reverse (white guy stealing black girl), and I've never seen it go interracial in another direction (IE muscular, violent, well-endowed latino/asian/etc.) I almost wonder if it isn't that white men feel more emasculated watching their woman with a black guy because they think of blacks as inferior (subconsciously, perhaps) and therefore being cuckolded by one is even more humiliating... I hate to accuse an entire segment of the population of racism, but that's the Occam's Razor answer here, to my eye. Someone in the last thread suggested it was simply the social taboo on interracial relationships, but those same taboos exist for whites involving themselves with latinos and, as mentioned, I've never seen that pop up in cuck fantasy. Anyone have thoughts on that?

leadership527 -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 8:22:42 AM)
I think you need to put that razor down before you cut yourself with it. You're seriously drawing straight-line conclusions from fantasy material? So then you also believe that most of the women in the US are secretly hoping to become rape victims?

mnottertail -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 8:28:56 AM)
Not most, but it is a common fantasy of velleity.

kalikshama -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 8:58:42 AM)
I'll bring this from the other thread. I said: "I like black guys (and white, Spanish, the list goes on), but I don't like black guys who fetishize me because of my race (as opposed to merely digging white chicks)." You said: "How do you distinguish those two things in your mind? What makes one distinct from the other?" What you say in your OP above is fetishizing. I like guys who happen to be [race] who happen to light my fire. The race is WAY secondary to the sparks. I've met black guys who are members of groups like "Black Masters with White Slaves" and are really into the race aspect, which is a turn off to me.

Palliata -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 9:20:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: leadership527 I think you need to put that razor down before you cut yourself with it. You're seriously drawing straight-line conclusions from fantasy material? So then you also believe that most of the women in the US are secretly hoping to become rape victims? Firstly, rape fantasies are actually remarkably common according to psychological surveys, and further many women under psychological care after a rape incident admit to enjoying it at some level and to experiencing orgasm during the incident. Not condoning rape, but such are the facts. Secondly, yes I am most definitely drawing straight-line conclusions about people's attitudes from their sexual fantasies. Fantasies don't spring fully-formed from the ether, they are drawn from our own psyche. Even in the case of a fantasy you don't want fulfilled, it is still indicative of elements within your personality just as every other thought, feeling, and action you have is. quote: ORIGINAL: kalikshama I'll bring this from the other thread. I said: "I like black guys (and white, Spanish, the list goes on), but I don't like black guys who fetishize me because of my race (as opposed to merely digging white chicks)." You said: "How do you distinguish those two things in your mind? What makes one distinct from the other?" What you say in your OP above is fetishizing. I like guys who happen to be [race] who happen to light my fire. The race is WAY secondary to the sparks. I've met black guys who are members of groups like "Black Masters with White Slaves" and are really into the race aspect, which is a turn off to me. So it's less that you enjoy the fact that they're black than it is that you enjoy them as people and they happen to be black, and that separates it from fetishism?

kalikshama -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 9:37:19 AM)
quote: So it's less that you enjoy the fact that they're black than it is that you enjoy them as people and they happen to be black, and that separates it from fetishism? Yes.

sexyred1 -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 9:38:25 AM)
To address the OP's comment on women secretly having enjoyed being raped, I cringe when I read such nonsense. Obviously, you have never actually been raped by a stranger and have been severely hurt. Your comment is so ridiculous it almost does not deserve a reply. And yes, many women have rape FANTASIES. Understand? FANTASIES that can be acted out safely; with a trusted person. To actually compare the pleasure one feels with play rape vs real life rape is stupidity beyond belief. As far as the actual topic; who can say? Fetishism sometimes just rises out of a particular preference, but one cannot assume racism or other negative intent when it comes to sexuality. I think your question is rather naive, to be honest since there are a myriad of different types of stereotypes in sexual fantasies and if you have not seen the ones you mentioned, then you are operating from a limited perspective.

kalikshama -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 9:43:29 AM)
quote: Why is it that black tops, especially service tops, are so fetishized? IME, this is more a kink for the male half of the white couple. I wonder if in general males are more insecure sexually and if this has something to do with males being more likely to be homophobic.

kalikshama -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 9:48:45 AM)
quote: To address the OP's comment on women secretly having enjoyed being raped, I cringe when I read such nonsense. I believe he's referring to the positive physical reaction that can happen. Someone once mentioned a woman's arousal reaction to fear is a biological defense mechanism to avoid injury during rape.

Palliata -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 10:05:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 To address the OP's comment on women secretly having enjoyed being raped, I cringe when I read such nonsense. Obviously, you have never actually been raped by a stranger and have been severely hurt. Your comment is so ridiculous it almost does not deserve a reply. And yes, many women have rape FANTASIES. Understand? FANTASIES that can be acted out safely; with a trusted person. To actually compare the pleasure one feels with play rape vs real life rape is stupidity beyond belief. Google "women orgasm during rape" and you'll find multiple sites. Here is one which is a peer-reviewed journal, the Journal of Clinical Forensic Medicine, and I expect you could find many more in short order. The article notes, and I agree, that this in no way implies consent or makes rape 'ok,' but to deny the facts is not the answer. I don't have a citation lying around for the case of admitting true enjoyment under therapeutic conditions, but I have seen research on it as well as reading articles written directly by victims that it occurs in some (not all, nor most) cases. Is all that a bit disturbing? No doubt. Should it be used to guide our actions? By no means. Yet factual data ought not be buried under reflexive emotional reactions. quote: As far as the actual topic; who can say? Fetishism sometimes just rises out of a particular preference, but one cannot assume racism or other negative intent when it comes to sexuality. I think your question is rather naive, to be honest since there are a myriad of different types of stereotypes in sexual fantasies and if you have not seen the ones you mentioned, then you are operating from a limited perspective. Why can it not be assumed? This post-Awakening idea of sexuality as discrete from attitudes, proclivities, and personality is baffling to me. If we were talking about expressed thoughts in another arena, would you say the same? As to my naïveté, I never claimed they didn't exist at all, I merely claimed that they are in no way the trend. If you know of a site dedicated to (or even featuring, in significant numbers,) minority male white female interracial cuckold fantasies written for and by white people starring 2-dimensional minorities, I would be interested to see it, though frankly I'm not sure why that would disprove allegations of racism. Edit: Typo

juliaoceania -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 11:01:43 AM)
It depends on the source of the humiliation. Is it because they think their mate would be more satisfied by a black man, or is it because they think black men are less than they are... both sources humiliation are based upon stereotypes, both are somewhat racist, one is way more racist than the other. I have always found fetishes based upon racial stereotypes to be racist. At the same time, there are worse fetishes to have, such as a penchant for those who cannot legally consent, etc.

angelikaJ -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 12:30:12 PM)
Reacting to physical stimulation and "enjoyment" are two completely different things. I once had an orgasm while in an ER waiting room when I had a raging UTI. It wasn't something I enjoyed at all. It was a physical reaction to very inflamed nerve endings. There was no arousal involved. Boom, it was suddenly just there. For some women, even if it's painful contact they will orgasm if you stimulate their clitoris enough. That doesn't mean it's something they enjoy or will secretly fantasize about later. The same could happen to you if someone were to milk your prostate gland, whether or not you were a willing participant.

Palliata -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 12:48:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Reacting to physical stimulation and "enjoyment" are two completely different things. I once had an orgasm while in an ER waiting room when I had a raging UTI. It wasn't something I enjoyed at all. It was a physical reaction to very inflamed nerve endings. There was no arousal involved. Boom, it was suddenly just there. For some women, even if it's painful contact they will orgasm if you stimulate their clitoris enough. That doesn't mean it's something they enjoy or will secretly fantasize about later. The same could happen to you if someone were to milk your prostate gland, whether or not you were a willing participant. Hence why I specified admissions of actual enjoyment under therapeutic conditions as well.

angelikaJ -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 12:52:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Palliata quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ Reacting to physical stimulation and "enjoyment" are two completely different things. I once had an orgasm while in an ER waiting room when I had a raging UTI. It wasn't something I enjoyed at all. It was a physical reaction to very inflamed nerve endings. There was no arousal involved. Boom, it was suddenly just there. For some women, even if it's painful contact they will orgasm if you stimulate their clitoris enough. That doesn't mean it's something they enjoy or will secretly fantasize about later. The same could happen to you if someone were to milk your prostate gland, whether or not you were a willing participant. Hence why I specified admissions of actual enjoyment under therapeutic conditions as well. And sometimes even under therapeutic conditions people can not make the separation: I had an orgasm so I must have enjoyed it on some level, when in fact that is not the case at all. edit: switching word order for clarity

Ishtarr -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 12:56:14 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 To address the OP's comment on women secretly having enjoyed being raped, I cringe when I read such nonsense. Obviously, you have never actually been raped by a stranger and have been severely hurt. Your comment is so ridiculous it almost does not deserve a reply. And yes, many women have rape FANTASIES. Understand? FANTASIES that can be acted out safely; with a trusted person. To actually compare the pleasure one feels with play rape vs real life rape is stupidity beyond belief. The OP may not have experienced it, but I have, and I don't think her comments where that much off at all. Don't assume that your personal experience and reaction is the only one possible, especially not where there is data that indicates that there are other experiences possible...

LadyConstanze -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 1:06:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 To address the OP's comment on women secretly having enjoyed being raped, I cringe when I read such nonsense. Obviously, you have never actually been raped by a stranger and have been severely hurt. Your comment is so ridiculous it almost does not deserve a reply. And yes, many women have rape FANTASIES. Understand? FANTASIES that can be acted out safely; with a trusted person. To actually compare the pleasure one feels with play rape vs real life rape is stupidity beyond belief. The OP may not have experienced it, but I have, and I don't think her comments where that much off at all. Don't assume that your personal experience and reaction is the only one possible, especially not where there is data that indicates that there are other experiences possible... Please do show that data, because there is a HUGE difference between rape fantasies and actual rape. Or do you actually think that all the women that have been raped and that are then hardly able to function after such a deeply traumatic event are just putting it on and secretly enjoyed it? There are other experiences possible, it's also possible that a plane falls out of the sky and lands on your house, it's possible, it's however not very likely and because you might have enjoyed being raped by a complete stranger and not knowing if he gave you any STD, if he might kill you or harm you, it's a far stretch to say it's something that most women would not find disturbing, frightening and repulsive but enjoy it.

Ishtarr -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 1:20:34 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LadyConstanze quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr quote: ORIGINAL: sexyred1 To address the OP's comment on women secretly having enjoyed being raped, I cringe when I read such nonsense. Obviously, you have never actually been raped by a stranger and have been severely hurt. Your comment is so ridiculous it almost does not deserve a reply. And yes, many women have rape FANTASIES. Understand? FANTASIES that can be acted out safely; with a trusted person. To actually compare the pleasure one feels with play rape vs real life rape is stupidity beyond belief. The OP may not have experienced it, but I have, and I don't think her comments where that much off at all. Don't assume that your personal experience and reaction is the only one possible, especially not where there is data that indicates that there are other experiences possible... Please do show that data, because there is a HUGE difference between rape fantasies and actual rape. Or do you actually think that all the women that have been raped and that are then hardly able to function after such a deeply traumatic event are just putting it on and secretly enjoyed it? There are other experiences possible, it's also possible that a plane falls out of the sky and lands on your house, it's possible, it's however not very likely and because you might have enjoyed being raped by a complete stranger and not knowing if he gave you any STD, if he might kill you or harm you, it's a far stretch to say it's something that most women would not find disturbing, frightening and repulsive but enjoy it. It didn't say there isn't a difference between a rape fantasy and actual rape. I didn't say that all women who have been raped secretly enjoy it. I didn't even say that most women secretly enjoy it. All I did say was that it's not impossible for a woman to experience enjoyment from being raped. I made no statements as to what I believe the norm to be. The OP made certain statements which sexyred1 dismissed with the assumption that the OP had no personal experience with the subjects, because she had never been raped before. I wanted to point out that what the OP said is correct for some women, like me personally, and that just like my personal experience isn't an indication for how all women will react to rape, so neither is sexyred1's. To dismiss any type of human reaction to any event as impossible is rather foolish considering the extend of the difference in the human race... Ishtar

angelikaJ -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 1:30:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Palliata I don't have a citation lying around for the case of admitting true enjoyment under therapeutic conditions, but I have seen research on it as well as reading articles written directly by victims that it occurs in some (not all, nor most) cases. Is all that a bit disturbing? No doubt. Should it be used to guide our actions? By no means. Yet factual data ought not be buried under reflexive emotional reactions. To be fair, the OP never claimed most although we tend to see that when we read the word "many". It happens sometimes. That it was Ishtarr's experience does not change the circumstance of anyone elses rape, and while Ishtarr's experience is different than that of most women's she should not be derided because of it. The problem is that neither should her experience become confused with the notion that women secretly want to be raped.

gothikbutterfly -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 1:36:15 PM)
No one ever WANTS to be raped! I am a rape victim myself, and didn't want it to happen AT ALL

Ishtarr -> RE: Racism and the 'black bull' (4/29/2011 1:39:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ The problem is that neither should her experience become confused with the notion that women secretly want to be raped. I totally agree with that, and I really don't want to get into the finer points of debating rape statistics and possibilities... I really don't think that's necessary. My main point was that dismissing the OP's point by making generalizations about human nature and how different people will respond to similar experiences is likely going to be a mistake, because of how divers human nature is. Ishtar Edited to add: quote: ORIGINAL: gothikbutterfly No one ever WANTS to be raped! I am a rape victim myself, and didn't want it to happen AT ALL That includes faulty generalizations such as these... The fact that you didn't want it to happen is no indication whatsoever about what other people want, and once you assume that the entire human race will necessarily react the same way as you do to think, you are going to be wrong...

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