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Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 4:43:04 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


Posts: 21
Joined: 4/17/2011
Status: offline 		Since 1963, the supreme court has ruled consistently that the establishment clause of the first ammendment (seperation of church and state) prohibits school sponshership and distribution of religious messages. This principle has been upheld by both liberal and conservative courts.

Some of those decisions include:
•1963 -- ABINGTON SCHOOL DIST. v. SCHEMPP -- banned school-directed recital of the Lord's Prayer and reading of Bible passages as part of "devotional exercises" in public schools.
•1980 -- STONE v. GRAHAM -- banned the posting of the the Ten Commandments on public school classroom walls.
•1985 -- WALLACE v. JAFFREE -- banned observance of "daily moments of silence" from public schools when students were encouraged to pray during the silent periods.
•1990 -- WESTSIDE COMMUNITY BD. OF ED. v. MERGENS -- held that schools must allow student prayer groups to organize and worship if other non-religious clubs are also permitted to meet on school property.
•1992 -- LEE v. WEISMAN -- outlawed prayers led by members of the clergy at public school graduation ceremonies.
•2000 -- SANTA FE INDEPENDENT SCHOOL DISTRICT v. DOE -- banned student-led pre-game prayers at public high school football games.


Do you believe these rulings protect the rights of students or infringe on the rights to religious expression?

Do you believe organized and led prayer in the class and at school sponsered events should be allowed, as long as nonbelievers may be excused?

Or should the schools concentrate on teaching secular studies and leave the area of faith and religion to the parents, church, ministers, etc.?

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 5:18:26 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

Do you believe these rulings protect the rights of students or infringe on the rights to religious expression?


They protect not only children's rights, but parental rights. If you are going to mandate kids go to public school, then parents have the right to make sure that the school does not provide spiritual guidance that might go against what the parent believes.


quote:

Do you believe organized and led prayer in the class and at school sponsered events should be allowed, as long as nonbelievers may be excused?


I will tell you what happened with my son... there was peer pressure on him to attend certain Christian youth groups, and there were even teachers at his high school that advocated his attending these social gatherings. The propensity of peer pressure to convince kids to think in certain ways about a religion contrary to that of their parents is too great to have prayer led in school. Saying that someone maybe excused is not good enough, as it is a visible cue of not belonging to the larger social group. No kid wants to be noticeably different from all of their friends.

quote:

Or should the schools concentrate on teaching secular studies and leave the area of faith and religion to the parents, church, ministers, etc.?


Personally, I do not see why religious people cannot go a few hours of the day without being led in prayer by some authority figure. If you need to be led in group prayer for many hours a day, perhaps parochial school would be more for you. I do not see how it is a hardship to be deprived of prayer in school. Are you saying that these kids cannot direct prayer on their own successfully? The only reason to have prayer in school is to win people to Jesus.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 5:30:45 PM   
FullCircle


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Status: offline 		Well they have to learn it at some point so best to get it over and done with early on. Preying at a sporting event is a complete waste of time especially if both sides are doing it. They'll just be cancelling each other out.

I'm a firm believer in the separation of church and state. Religious schools should be outlawed or at least not funded by the taxpayer.

Also it should be illegal to hold an assembly without an adequate amount of chairs.



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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 6:05:14 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


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Status: offline 		I completely agree with you Julia, was just trying to post the question in a neutral tone.

It is completly ridiculus when people clain that they are being denied their right to pray in school.

You are right about the peer pressure and intimidation of kids that dont conform to the majority. That is why the supreme cout has consistently ruled that excusing the child from participation is not sufficient protection of thier {and as you pointed out their parents') rights.

It really irritates me when people make the stupid claim that problems in schools is a result of the ban on forced prayer.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 6:34:15 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

It really irritates me when people make the stupid claim that problems in schools is a result of the ban on forced prayer.


It has been my experience in this world that there are some people who think the only way that people will behave is if there is some angry desert god that will smite wrong doing. They believe that without there being some divine punishment that there will be anarchy. The only reason why human beings treat each other well is because of fear of hellfire and damnation. I have heard more than one Christian tell me that they truly believe that secular humanism is evil. If you get right down to it, what they are saying is that no one could possibly be any good without accepting Jesus Christ as their personal savior. Now I have no trouble with them believing this, but I think this is partially what threatens them about schools without prayer, because they have such a lowly opinion of people (including themselves) that they cannot possibly conceive of people behaving because they want to behave.


I haven't seen the studies that show prayer in school somehow stops wrong doing. The one common thing that seems to help make a school a less violent, less criminal place is economic resources. And unless someone wants to equate wealth with religion, it is pretty hard to argue that secular humanism begets violence.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 7:48:50 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

Preying at a sporting event is a complete waste of time especially if both sides are doing it. They'll just be cancelling each other out.




Way back when i was in school, they still had prayer before the game. Of course in Texas, High School Football qualifies as a religion in itselft.

I remember one game the prayer was lead by the head cheerleader. She prayed for a good game and that the lord protect the players, then as soon as she said amen, she gave her yell.... "Now lets go out there and KILL them!" haha

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 8:30:46 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

If you are going to mandate kids go to public school


I think that public is the word we want to focus on here. Imagine if a public business required you to pray when you were in their store or restaurant or theater. Yet there are some who think that praying in a public school is somehow different.
Oh btw I just perved your profile and pictures of your fine ass are conspicuously absent....

< Message edited by thompsonx -- 4/29/2011 8:32:24 PM >

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 9:02:41 PM   
gungadin09


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Status: offline 		i forget, what did they ever do about the pledge of allegiance? Doesn't it have the words, "One nation under God? " And what about the phrase "In God we trust" on the money? It seems like, to be consistent, they would have to take those phrases out. Also, i think Jehovah's Witnesses (or somebody) say that pledging allegiance to the flag consists of worshiping an idol. Doesn't the boy scouts get federal funding, even though it's a religious group? i forget what the rules are, exactly.

pam

P.S.- Damn, the Star Spankled Banner does it, too.

P.P.S.- i know courts don't swear people in on the Bible anymore, but do they still use the phrase "so help you God?"

< Message edited by gungadin09 -- 4/29/2011 9:08:47 PM >

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 9:36:42 PM   
Edwynn


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The "under God" addition the the pledge was put in place in 1954.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm

The 9th Circuit ruled that it violated church/state separation but when in was appealed to the supreme court they sidestepped the core issue by ruling that the father (who brought the suit) of the student had no standing because he and his ex were in a custody battle over the daughter whose school he was suing.

That and the currency inscriptions are going to be a tough battle to remove.

To see why:

http://undergod.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000075


The religious government proponents are relentless.







< Message edited by Edwynn -- 4/29/2011 9:38:15 PM >

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 9:45:31 PM   
gungadin09


Posts: 3232
Joined: 3/19/2010
Status: offline 		Interestingly enough, most state constitutions contain references to God. The phrase "so help me God" is included in many oaths of office. Some states have laws prohibiting atheists from testifying in court or holding public office. These laws are probably unenforceable, but they exist.

http://www.usconstitution.net/states_god.html

pam

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 9:54:11 PM   
gungadin09


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn
That and the currency inscriptions are going to be a tough battle to remove.


i know, and the phrase doesn't bug me too much. It's pretty far from the comingling of church and state experienced in some countries. Even despite these little glitches, i think the U.S. pretty much upholds the promise of "separation of church and state". i'm more or less content with the way things are now. It's just that, logically, things like that do violate the idea of a secular state.

pam

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 10:05:15 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

The "under God" addition the the pledge was put in place in 1954.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_pled1.htm



I knew the "under god" clause was added in the 50's but didn't realize the original author was a socialist. Ha, funny thinking about all those republican congressmen and senators writing bills and resolutions supporting the work of a socialist...haha

Of course, they are more interested in the "under god" part that was shoe horned into the middle of the pledge rather than the liberty and justice for all which shoudl be the focal point of the pledge.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 10:35:19 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


Posts: 21
Joined: 4/17/2011
Status: offline 		Legacy prhases like "in god we trust" on money and even swearing "so help me god" don't bother me and just seem quaint.

However, I do have a real issue with the display of the ten commandments in court rooms, court house lawns or other places of authority.

I have had people argue that the ten commandments form the basis of our legal system. That is pure hog wash. One friend could not understand my objection to them being displayed in a court. I asked him if he even knew what they said. He replied of course he did, dont' kill, dont steal or lie....

I reminded him that the commandment to not kill was number seven, that there were six that ranked higher than not killing.

Of course they are recognizing YHW as the "true god", not serving any other, not worshiping idols, not blaspheming, observing the sabboth and honoring your parents.

Clearly displaying these in a court room would be contrary to the establishment clause.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/29/2011 11:00:00 PM   
Termyn8or


Posts: 18681
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Status: offline 		"Do you believe these rulings protect the rights of students or infringe on the rights to religious expression? "

Both. The problem is there are too many people. There is no school choice. There is no choice. When there is choice these issues mean nothing.

For example if you send your kid to a Catholic school, they (at least the good one here) have a class called "World religions". How dare they teach the kids Buddahism(sp) ? Shintoism. Anything else ism. You pay them for that.

If you want to indocrinate your kids with a religion do it at home. And there should never have been a pledge of allegiance, ever. If you pay taxes that's good enough. I NEVER recited the pledge of allegiance and I never will, to a flag. The "flag" doesn't care about me. The "flag" cares about money. I will not pledge my allegiance to money.

Kids should do what they want, the school should not direct nor encourage nor discourage any of this, they should stay out of it.

However the display of something religious should not be banned. If people can't take it they can move to a country that enforces their religion. Get out.

Prayer in schools ? How about some practical learning instead of them leading people by the nose into issues that really mean nothing. Nothing at all. Just stay out of it.

You want a Christian rally or something at a school ? Get ready for the Buddists, Hare Krishnas, Shintos, Moslems, Jews, Satanists as well as Atheists.

They all have equal rights. These rights do not include imposing their junk on others in a place they are required to be, and that includes the workplace. That's why there is such a thing called privacy.

T^T

ETA : I don't mean this personally, I mean to anyone who tries to use the force of government to impose their will on others. Anyone, including those who call on neighbors who annoy them. Here, one neighbor flies the US flag and the other the "Don't Tread On Me" flag. I don't want to see either. But you know what, I guess that's just my tough luck. They probably don't like the fact that I don't fly any flag. Same difference.

< Message edited by Termyn8or -- 4/29/2011 11:29:48 PM >

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 7:38:58 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Never mind


< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/30/2011 7:39:48 AM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 7:42:17 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

You want a Christian rally or something at a school ? Get ready for the Buddists, Hare Krishnas, Shintos, Moslems, Jews, Satanists as well as Atheists.


Kids here are allowed to have before and after school religion clubs on school property. I often wonder why this isn't good enough for them.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 7:49:10 AM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Did someone say it wasnt? I cant find a basis for your post, julia. And, no, that isnt snark.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 7:55:25 AM   
Seatonstomb


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Status: offline 		Should it not be the law that children are banned from being involved in religious ceremonies until they are of an age free from parental compulsion. No baptism, or other such forced involvement in religion with out informed consent of the individual.



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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 7:57:06 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

Should it not be the law that children are banned from being involved in religious ceremonies until they are of an age free from parental compulsion. No baptism, or other such forced involvement in religion with out informed consent of the individual.


The same law would then apply to Boy/Girl Scouts, piano and tuba lessons, school and after school sports.....

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Seatonstomb)
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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 7:58:00 AM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Did someone say it wasnt? I cant find a basis for your post, julia. And, no, that isnt snark.



I was not referring to people on this thread saying it wasn't good enough for them. I was referring to the evangelical communities' insistence that prayer be allowed in public school. I assume that prayer clubs are not good enough for them since they are CONSTANTLY attempting to change that prayer is not allowed in public school.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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