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ORIGINAL: Seatonstomb

Should it not be the law that children are banned from being involved in religious ceremonies until they are of an age free from parental compulsion. No baptism, or other such forced involvement in religion with out informed consent of the individual.

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ORIGINAL: Thirsty4Goddess

Do you believe these rulings protect the rights of students or infringe on the rights to religious expression?

Do you believe organized and led prayer in the class and at school sponsered events should be allowed, as long as nonbelievers may be excused?

Or should the schools concentrate on teaching secular studies and leave the area of faith and religion to the parents, church, ministers, etc.?

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ok. But didnt they have to fight for those prayer clubs? And its beyond just the fight for being allowed to have a religious club after school. What of muslim students who pray serveral times a day?

Now, I am not advocating "prayer in school" like it was when I was growing up. But, in this day and age of enlightenment, shouldnt space be made for all... those who pray and those who dont?

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Ok. But didnt they have to fight for those prayer clubs? And its beyond just the fight for being allowed to have a religious club after school. What of muslim students who pray serveral times a day?

Now, I am not advocating "prayer in school" like it was when I was growing up. But, in this day and age of enlightenment, shouldnt space be made for all... those who pray and those who dont?

I do not think that Muslims should be granted special privileges in regard to prayer, but their holy days should be respected and they should be allowed to take their break time on religious holidays. I know my friend who teaches in Georgia was given specific instructions not to bend rules for Muslim students in regard to food in classrooms because of Ramadan. Students used to be allowed to have crackers in class, and now they are not allowed to.

I think it is even more troubling when dealing with Muslims in regard to public prayer, because men and women cannot pray together. Muslims cannot pray with infidels, etc etc etc.

My brother in law is a correctional officer. He has related to me that inmates take freedom of religion cases to the courts all of the time. Do we really want this to be the case in public schools? Do we want kids saying that they should be able to sacrifice small animals to Satan, for example? Or draw pentagrams in sidewalk chalk in this same area that Christian kids are praying in? How about Wiccans casting spells against the Christian kids, all in the same place? Is this really a road you want to see our kids travel on?


I think putting religious spaces into public schools is a recipe for another thing that kids can use as a territorial weapon against each other.

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There is ignorance in that small bit (and I am not using the word ignorance in any kind of perjorative sense, but in the literal "not knowing") and I think that is really part of the problem.

Perhaps if there was more openness allowed then there would be an understanding that Wiccans don't cast spells against Christians, and there is nothing inherently evil about a pentagram, even if one version of it have been adopted by Satantists, it is a Wiccan symbol and Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism.

Ignorance is what keeps us frightened of one another.
It is what makes us afraid of Muslims even though the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and the extremists use that tool well.

Fear fuels intolerance and extremism and extremism fuels fear and and they are both dependent on us not knowing.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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There is ignorance in that small bit (and I am not using the word ignorance in any kind of perjorative sense, but in the literal "not knowing") and I think that is really part of the problem.

Perhaps if there was more openness allowed then there would be an understanding that Wiccans don't cast spells against Christians, and there is nothing inherently evil about a pentagram, even if one version of it have been adopted by Satantists, it is a Wiccan symbol and Wicca has nothing to do with Satanism.

Ignorance is what keeps us frightened of one another.
It is what makes us afraid of Muslims even though the majority of Muslims are peaceful, and the extremists use that tool well.

Fear fuels intolerance and extremism and extremism fuels fear and and they are both dependent on us not knowing.

Are you telling me that teenage kids who watch movies such as "The Craft" are not going to try to do this crap at school under the umbrella of "religious freedom"? Are you really going to tell me that high school kids understand the history of Wicca? Even if kids did understand it, are you telling me that there wouldn't be a kid that might get great kicks out of tormenting Christian kids with such symbols?

My comment was not "ignorant", my comment was pointed at what those advocating prayer in public schools would be opening the flood gates to.

Recently I was in downtown LA with friends from my MA program. We were on a walking tour of historic buildings when we passed a store that sells magical spells. It was a hoodoo store with a multitude of herbs and animal parts. Are you saying that teenagers wouldn't engage in this stuff? BTW, I am not necessarily against magic myself, I enjoy studying it.

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I do not think that Muslims should be granted special privileges in regard to prayer, but their holy days should be respected and they should be allowed to take their break time on religious holidays. I know my friend who teaches in Georgia was given specific instructions not to bend rules for Muslim students in regard to food in classrooms because of Ramadan. Students used to be allowed to have crackers in class, and now they are not allowed to.

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Yes, parents fought for prayer clubs, and if I had my way, they would have to meet at Church for those, because it is just one more erosion of public, taxpayer space being used to further a certain religion. And that religion is Christianity 9 times out of 10. Not to mention that the entire reason they want this crap at school is to save (indoctrinate) students that haven't come to Jesus yet. I have a major problem with this agenda. Unfortunately, many Christians believe that their reward in Heaven is directly related to how many "seeds" they planted, and how much "fruit" came off of those trees. It is their job to spread their message, and they have no respect for me, my child, or any other nonbeliever. In fact they often think that if you are not saved, your dead anyways, so why respect your evil parental authority. They will do anything they can to undermine you as a parent because their god tells them to, period, end of story. Otherwise, they would tell their children to do what Jesus told them to do, which was to go into a closet and pray quietly, so quietly that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing, and not to go out into the street and pray with the hypocrites, because they are not heard by god for all their loudness, and their reward is on earth anyhow.

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pray quietly, so quietly that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing

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Why should a group that has already met in one place have to move to another, simply because you dont agree with them meeting? Isnt that discrimination?

As far as respect, where is the respect they should have when people who disagree with their belief demand they more "elsewhere" because those people fear their children can be so easily swayed?

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This is not about praying in closets, this is about not singing your own praises when you give alms to others....

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ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

My post wasnt in response to crackers, but in response to them being allowed time to pray.

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Why should school officials allow public property to be used by non curricular activities. This means that utility usage increases, which is paid for by taxpayer monies. I do not want to pay taxes for religion.

Furthermore, I have not joined any organization that would end prayer groups of any stripe... but I have a challenge for all those Christians that would have their kids evangelicize to other children of different faiths, they should let some satanist kids in to the same area that they reserve for their privileged meetings. I wonder how many Christians would like it is some teenagers were trying to call up some demons around their children.

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And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites [are]: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward." Matthew

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That is included in the post I made, julia. And it refers to alms giving and bragging about how they gave and how much... which is what the chapter is addressing, not secretly hiding when praying.

This is the problem with taking a verse from the Bible and negating the entire lesson.

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However, this is still problematic, because in some schools, majority would like to pray, and those who don't want, might be ostracized by other students.

So, IMHO, it would be better if the prayer was a personal thing, done in privacy of home, or in church, or even in school, but individually. Collective prayer during the classes would almost inevitably ostracize some students, so I recommend it only for those schools where all or almost all students belong to same faith and want to pray.

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ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

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That is included in the post I made, julia. And it refers to alms giving and bragging about how they gave and how much... which is what the chapter is addressing, not secretly hiding when praying.

This is the problem with taking a verse from the Bible and negating the entire lesson.

You notice the word "and" in there... In English the word "and" joins one idea with the other. It joins the idea that you should be discreet in giving alms instead of expecting a reward for it, with the idea that praying outside loudly to be seen by others is also something that isn't rewarded by god.

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My post was about eating crackers in a classroom because of fasting for Ramadan and observation of holy days.

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Here is the thing I find the most repugnant about teenage Christian youth groups, and that is they use sex to sell their religion to adolescents. My son at one point was so hot to join this group with this best friend because they were both chasing these girls that belonged to it. I wouldn't let him join because the youth minister was creepy and ordered my son to be disrespectful to my mother by making her wait beyond the agreed upon time when she went to pick him up. Made an old lady wait in the rain on a dark winter night.