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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:16:50 PM   
juliaoceania


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl


quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

That is included in the post I made, julia. And it refers to alms giving and bragging about how they gave and how much... which is what the chapter is addressing, not secretly hiding when praying.

This is the problem with taking a verse from the Bible and negating the entire lesson.


You notice the word "and" in there... In English the word "and" joins one idea with the other. It joins the idea that you should be discreet in giving alms instead of expecting a reward for it, with the idea that praying outside loudly to be seen by others is also something that isn't rewarded by god.


According to the entire section, it is related to praying about their good deeds, which is an act of bragging.

No matter what words you try and explain the meaning of, the meaning of the text is obvious. You cannot nit pick the parts you wish and discount the rest. Why would someone need to pray to god about how much they gave? God would already know. The praying about giving would only mean someone needed to be noticed for such... it has nothing to do with praying in a closet so the right hand doesnt know what the left hand is doing.


To me, and this is only my interpretation..It means exactly that, praying publicly so that others can see you and say "Oh what a good person am I?" Which yes, is a form of bragging. The passage was NOT only about bragging about alms as you suggested. It is being loud in your prayer to get noticed for it.


Edited to add, I have noticed that you have not stated about how you feel about satanism clubs that work on calling up demons in the same space that the Christian kids would use for their prayer space.... unless of course you are advancing the idea that it would not be one space set aside for religious people, but multiple spaces set aside for multiple religions. And I wonder, who would get the best prayer spots.... we would run into separate but equal problems as well

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/30/2011 12:19:26 PM >

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:20:34 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		this is fun because tazzy is crazy.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:21:25 PM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		What if someone prayed loudly on their cell phone?

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:26:54 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

What if someone prayed loudly on their cell phone?



This is between them and their provider, if they have the minutes, and their provider doesn't care, it is no skin off my nose

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:27:07 PM   
MasterJoeExcited


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Joined: 4/26/2011
Status: offline 		I am a believer myself, and when I pray, I thank God for the good things in the past, and pray for the good things in the future. I pray only in my home, individually, and never in public. I don't get this idea of praying for their past good deeds. When it comes to past, I usually pray for forgiveness of my sins. Now this entire post maybe seems like bragging :) If it is, may God forgive me.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:28:44 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterJoeExcited

I am a believer myself, and when I pray, I thank God for the good things in the past, and pray for the good things in the future. I pray only in my home, individually, and never in public. I don't get this idea of praying for their past good deeds. When it comes to past, I usually pray for forgiveness of my sins. Now this entire post maybe seems like bragging :) If it is, may God forgive me.



Prepare for the lightening that is about to strike you (only kidding)


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:29:02 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Matthew 6, 1-4 is about alms giving.

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

5 - 15 is about prayer

5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

16 - 18 is about fasting, and not germaine to this discussion.

Now, in your post, you said...

quote:

Otherwise, they would tell their children to do what Jesus told them to do, which was to go into a closet and pray quietly, so quietly that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing, and not to go out into the street and pray with the hypocrites, because they are not heard by god for all their loudness, and their reward is on earth anyhow.


so quietly that the right hand does not know what the left hand is doing

This is clearly in reference to alms, not prayers.

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

All that you said is about the alms, julia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_6

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:34:21 PM   
juliaoceania


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Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Tazzy, I am not going to get into a debate on the meaning of words that are completely fucking obvious to anyone with a high school diploma, grant you, I didn't mention alms giving in my original reply on this thread jacking you are attempting to undertake, but the passage goes on to INCLUDE PRAYING LOUDLY AS A FORM OF BEING A BRAGGING LOSER HYPOCRITE CHRISTIAN. Now you want to debate that, continue on and debate the wind. I am done with this obvious attempt to distract from the topic at hand.

Now, for the last time, do you want to pray in a space where the people who used it before you held the mock sacrifice of a virgin to worship Lucifer, Lord of Eternal Damnation? Or perhaps they chanted out some form of demon bird call? Is that an acceptable use of school property in your book? If you will not answer me, fine, but I will assume it is because you know damn well Christian parents would be up in arms if Satanists were infecting their babies with demon spouge.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:37:37 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline 		Julia, im actually enjoying this discussion. Please dont reduce it to a litany of swear words and belittlement. If that is your intention, let me know now and I will simply leave the discussion to you.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:38:52 PM   
domiguy


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Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		tazzy is insane...please continue on, julia.

You are a masochist, right?

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:44:37 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl

Julia, im actually enjoying this discussion. Please dont reduce it to a litany of swear words and belittlement. If that is your intention, let me know now and I will simply leave the discussion to you.


I want to talk about prayer in public school. You want to talk about whether or not loud prayer is a form of hypocritical behavior, that is not what I want to talk about. To me, it is a form of thread jacking, which is further confirmed in my mind as you will not answer a question I posed three times.... when you are interested in debating the topic of the thread let me know.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:46:54 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

tazzy is insane...please continue on, julia.

You are a masochist, right?


Yeah, I am a masochist, but as of now I have more important things to attend to, like spending the rest of my Saturday with real people, instead of you fake fuckers that only exist in binary code...





_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:49:57 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Now, for the last time, do you want to pray in a space where the people who used it before you held the mock sacrifice of a virgin to worship Lucifer, Lord of Eternal Damnation? Or perhaps they chanted out some form of demon bird call? Is that an acceptable use of school property in your book? If you will not answer me, fine, but I will assume it is because you know damn well Christian parents would be up in arms if Satanists were infecting their babies with demon spouge.


Dunno what "demon spouge" is. But I doubt that they would be ustilizing the same space since most after school activities occur at the same time.

Having said that, I do believe there may be lines crossed when they perform a "mock sacrifice of a virgin". How do you do a mock of that? As far as the demon bird call... eh... never heard one so I wouldnt know what one was, would you? Are goth followers not allowed to meet on property? I have even seen tarot clubs on school grounds.. and no one was up in arms.

But, here is an article in reference to exactly the supposition you posted.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/771259/posts

The school announced the club, sent parents emails that under the law, this was allowed. The kids who started it admitted to starting the club simply to stir things up, then got into it.

I, personally, have no issue with this. Should anyone else? Obviously the christian religious do. But it doesnt seem to be because of what they are teaching, but more along the lines of what they are allowing vs not allowing.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 12:53:58 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

I want to talk about prayer in public school. You want to talk about whether or not loud prayer is a form of hypocritical behavior, that is not what I want to talk about. To me, it is a form of thread jacking, which is further confirmed in my mind as you will not answer a question I posed three times.... when you are interested in debating the topic of the thread let me know.


Addressed, though why you would want to debate this with someone you consider a "fake fucker" I have no clue.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 1:02:29 PM   
tazzygirl


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Joined: 10/12/2007
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quote:

Edited to add, I have noticed that you have not stated about how you feel about satanism clubs that work on calling up demons in the same space that the Christian kids would use for their prayer space.... unless of course you are advancing the idea that it would not be one space set aside for religious people, but multiple spaces set aside for multiple religions. And I wonder, who would get the best prayer spots.... we would run into separate but equal problems as well


I only noticed you asked twice (at which time I responded to your questions) , then had to go back and saw this slid into an edit I didnt read. But, either way, I responded.

And, of course there are multiple spaces set aside for after school activities. Arent there normally? I would doubt there is a "best prayer" site, and that most have their own specific preferences that wouldnt necessarily overlap.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 2:17:43 PM   
Thirsty4Goddess


Posts: 21
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Status: offline 		I don't have an issue with school property being used for nonscholastic club meetings as long as there is no special consideration of one group over another. As long as the chess club, french club, Dungens and Dragons club, WICCA, students for satan, etc.... get the same treatment as the Fellowship of Christian Atheletes or other prayer groups and they are not allowed to interfer with class or get any special treatment, then fine.



I do have a problem with people expecting the school to make accomodations for religious activity during class. Anyone can offer prayers to their diety or dieties anytime as long as they do it silently and in a manner to not disturb class. Prayer that requires special rituals should be done elsewhere.




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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 2:30:42 PM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

I do have a problem with people expecting the school to make accomodations for religious activity during class. Anyone can offer prayers to their diety or dieties anytime as long as they do it silently and in a manner to not disturb class. Prayer that requires special rituals should be done elsewhere.


I agree, they should not interrupt the classroom. But I also have problems with the football team being allowed to interfer with classroom instruction as well.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to Thirsty4Goddess)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 3:29:05 PM   
outhere69


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quote:

ORIGINAL: tazzygirl
Why would they evangalize to other students if they are meeting in a club related to their faith? Im confused about this. Do band members routinely join in on the year book groups? Or chess club members hang out with the photography club? Sure the members can overlap, but, its always been my understanding that these clubs are open to those who chose to join.

Many (not all, before all y'alls jump me) evangelicals and fundamentalists regard all meetings with non-believers as opportunities for conversion.  Adults and kids alike are taught ways to steer the topic of conversation over to "do you know Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"

On some college campuses, non-Christians (or homosexual Christians) wanted to join groups like Campus Crusade for Christ but were banned, and went to court about it since the group received college funds.

Julia, at the Dayton airport is a chapel (prayer/meditation room).  Who is going to give a hoot that a Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Sikh, Wiccan, or Satanist used the room before them?  In the case you're talking about, Christians believe God has power over Satan so what difference does it make?  Wiccans generally start out by purifying a space, so why would they care if someone had a prayer meeting in there?  The only objections I could see if there was only 1 religion's symbols used in a common space.

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RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 3:37:25 PM   
tazzygirl


Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline
quote:

"do you know Jesus Christ as your personal savior?"


These people are annoying, but they cannot possibly pose a threat to anyone. I find simply walking away a very good response.

quote:

On some college campuses, non-Christians (or homosexual Christians) wanted to join groups like Campus Crusade for Christ but were banned, and went to court about it since the group received college funds.


And they should have... good for them!



_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to outhere69)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Prayer in (public) School - 4/30/2011 6:42:09 PM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

Julia, at the Dayton airport is a chapel (prayer/meditation room).  Who is going to give a hoot that a Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Sikh, Wiccan, or Satanist used the room before them?  In the case you're talking about, Christians believe God has power over Satan so what difference does it make?  Wiccans generally start out by purifying a space, so why would they care if someone had a prayer meeting in there?  The only objections I could see if there was only 1 religion's symbols used in a common space.



As someone with family members that are evangelical, some of them believe STRONGLY that they can become demon possessed at any moment, even if they are saved. According to some Christians, Satan will constantly seek to make the lives of believers a misery. Many Catholics also believe that demonic rituals leave traces of their power after they are done, opening a portal that demons may travel into our mists.

I personally know many Christians that believe most nonChristians are demon possessed and that you can catch it like the flu. If you look at the New Testament, it talks about Jesus casting out demons into swine, the implication was that the demons need a host in order to inhabit this realm. In Acts, apostles went out and did the same miracles that Jesus did, and many Christians believe it is in their power to do the same.


I have a sibling that is convinced his own daughter suffers from demon possession because she studies Wicca and has experimented with bisexuality. Of course I think he needs professional counseling for these beliefs, but the fact remains he is hardly in the minority for feeling this way. He would be suspect of any area that had been used for satanic purposes, he would feel the need to cleanse his environment and himself if he found he had been around an area that was tainted

The funny thing is I have had these debates with my brother about prayer in school, and he had no answer for satanists on the loose doing rituals, incantations, etc. He thought it was ridiculous that anyone would give satanists equal standing with Christians when it came to self expression. I think that is the entire point I am trying to make. Many Christians try to portray themselves as martyrs, the persecuted minority... which is ridiculous, they are not persecuted at all. Just because some of us do not appreciate evangelicals (since I am related to a few I have firsthand experience dealing with their illogical thought process that by saying they cannot indoctrinate other people's children they are somehow denied their "freedom"). I also know for a fact that in their minds people who are not saved are leading their children on the path to eternal damnation. They do not respect parental authority. They do not respect parents that are not saved. They think nothing of undermining parents of children who do not believe the same way as they do, and they feel as though it is their duty to win souls no matter what.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 4/30/2011 6:43:54 PM >

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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