RE: Where have all the miracles gone ?

RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (Full Version)

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tazzygirl -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 3:47:59 PM)
quote: No. Which brings me back to the point of how you keep saying you are spiritual but not religious, yet you are constantly on the attack at any perceived sleight of religion. Im not religious. Nor would I have to be physically challenged to take up the cause for Special Olympics. Nor did people have to be black to take up the cause for slavery.

rulemylife -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 3:54:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi So sorry. Ok then, I don't wear a burka on my head, but I get really angry when I see bigots doing it. Does this mean I should ignore them when they shout insults at the women who do? You get really angry when you see bigots wearing burkas? By the way, you do know that a burka is a full body covering? Not just for the head. Let me try it again. I don't wear a burka, but I get really angry when I see bigots attacking those doing it. Does this mean I should ignore them when they do? better? I don't recall seeing anyone attacking the women who wear burkas. What I recall are those who questioned a society that demanded women to dress like that in the heat of a desert. What I recall is the questioning of societies where women are viewed as chattel and forced to conceal every inch of their bodies.

vincentML -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 3:57:05 PM)
Wow! Thank you, tazzygirl. This is incredibly interesting information. Never too old to learn. Seriously fascinating. This passage suggests that Greek was well known if not expertly throughout all classes in Judea. Amazing! Also suggests that greek thought might have been pervasive in Judea, but resisted by the Orthodox. Can you imagine Jews wrestling naked with Greeks in the Temple and it was not on the evening news? [:D] quote: It can hardly be maintained that Greek was used only by the upper classes and was restricted to commerce, or that it was restricted to those who needed it to communicate with the governing authorities; the Christian Hellenizers (Acts, 6:1), who apparently spoke Greek only and were thus more deeply affected by Hellenization, were not restricted to the higher classes. Josephus (Ant., 20:264) clearly indicates that ordinary freemen and even slaves in Palestine had learned many languages. However, his statement (ibid., 20:263) that it had proven difficult for him to master Greek, especially the pronunciation, and the faulty Greek in many inscriptions indicate that the level of knowledge of Greek was not high. Even Josephus (Apion, 1:50) had to employ assistants to polish the Greek of his De Bello Judaico. The knowledge of Greek possessed by Jewish Christians in Palestine, however, because of their closer contact with Diaspora Jews and with non-Jews outside Palestine, must have been better; and recent scholarship has concluded that it is probable that Jesus himself sometimes spoke Greek.

tazzygirl -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:00:38 PM)
It truly is an interesting link. It also shows a seperation among the classes. Merchants (business men) of course were always the first in on the new lingo! It can hardly be maintained that Greek was used only by the upper classes and was restricted to commerce, or that it was restricted to those who needed it to communicate with the governing authorities; the Christian Hellenizers (Acts, 6:1), who apparently spoke Greek only and were thus more deeply affected by Hellenization, were not restricted to the higher classes. Josephus (Ant., 20:264) clearly indicates that ordinary freemen and even slaves in Palestine had learned many languages. However, his statement (ibid., 20:263) that it had proven difficult for him to master Greek, especially the pronunciation, and the faulty Greek in many inscriptions indicate that the level of knowledge of Greek was not high. Even Josephus (Apion, 1:50) had to employ assistants to polish the Greek of his De Bello Judaico. The knowledge of Greek possessed by Jewish Christians in Palestine, however, because of their closer contact with Diaspora Jews and with non-Jews outside Palestine, must have been better; and recent scholarship has concluded that it is probable that Jesus himself sometimes spoke Greek. So, while they learned to communicate, its doubtful they were part of any philosophical discussions on the level of atomus.

rulemylife -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:01:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: No. Which brings me back to the point of how you keep saying you are spiritual but not religious, yet you are constantly on the attack at any perceived sleight of religion. Im not religious. Nor would I have to be physically challenged to take up the cause for Special Olympics. Nor did people have to be black to take up the cause for slavery. You keep trying to portray this as the evil atheists attacking those who believe and fail to acknowledge that it goes both ways.

tazzygirl -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:05:13 PM)
quote: You keep trying to portray this as the evil atheists attacking those who believe and fail to acknowledge that it goes both ways. And if someone came here and tried to insist that god was the only way, and started jumping on an atheist for his/her belief... and I dont mean belief in a religious way... I would react the same way I have now.

playfulotter -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:11:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin Where have all the miracles gone ? There never were any miracles. I believe in what DomKen said and also I think miracles are just being lucky or coincidences if they don't go too way out there with weird impossible things going on that don't have any common sense at all.........but there is nothing wrong with that is there??...to be lucky and have good things happen to you is a good thing.

vincentML -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:15:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl It truly is an interesting link. It also shows a seperation among the classes. Merchants (business men) of course were always the first in on the new lingo! It can hardly be maintained that Greek was used only by the upper classes and was restricted to commerce, or that it was restricted to those who needed it to communicate with the governing authorities; the Christian Hellenizers (Acts, 6:1), who apparently spoke Greek only and were thus more deeply affected by Hellenization, were not restricted to the higher classes. Josephus (Ant., 20:264) clearly indicates that ordinary freemen and even slaves in Palestine had learned many languages. However, his statement (ibid., 20:263) that it had proven difficult for him to master Greek, especially the pronunciation, and the faulty Greek in many inscriptions indicate that the level of knowledge of Greek was not high. Even Josephus (Apion, 1:50) had to employ assistants to polish the Greek of his De Bello Judaico. The knowledge of Greek possessed by Jewish Christians in Palestine, however, because of their closer contact with Diaspora Jews and with non-Jews outside Palestine, must have been better; and recent scholarship has concluded that it is probable that Jesus himself sometimes spoke Greek. So, while they learned to communicate, its doubtful they were part of any philosophical discussions on the level of atomus. I am not sure your conclusion follows. Josephus was attempting to communicate, was he not, to a world wide audience where every nuance of his Greek language skills would have had to be precise? This only suggests to me that the bar was set extremely high for his particular task. It does not diminish the suggestion that even slaves had a knowledge of the language. And let me suggest that language carries its own philosophy whether or not it is overtly declared. It rubs off. Just like American culture is often adopted with American English. Again, thanks for my new window into the ancient world [:)]

rulemylife -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:20:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: You keep trying to portray this as the evil atheists attacking those who believe and fail to acknowledge that it goes both ways. And if someone came here and tried to insist that god was the only way, and started jumping on an atheist for his/her belief... and I dont mean belief in a religious way... I would react the same way I have now. I'll hold you to that, but I think we both know you have not demonstrated it before.

DomKen -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:33:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: littlewonder miracles still happen everyday.... people who were blind from birth or for many many years and one day they can see....did nothing, no surgeries..they can just see now. No explanation. People who were pronounced dead only to wake up in a morgue hours or a day later. Then there are those who have lifelong illnesses or fatal diseases and one day it's gone..just gone. Doctors can't explain it. Tests are done and it's just not there anymore. No more miracles?? Tell that to these people. Show me those people with actual medical histories indicating they actually had those diseases. I've spent an inordinate amount of time trying to find even one documented "healing" and so far there have been none that stood up to even cursory research most such claims were outright frauds.

tazzygirl -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:36:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rulemylife quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: You keep trying to portray this as the evil atheists attacking those who believe and fail to acknowledge that it goes both ways. And if someone came here and tried to insist that god was the only way, and started jumping on an atheist for his/her belief... and I dont mean belief in a religious way... I would react the same way I have now. I'll hold you to that, but I think we both know you have not demonstrated it before. Has someone made such a post?

tazzygirl -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:39:24 PM)
Understanding the language isnt the only part of Hellenism. Nor does it negate what I posted earlier.

rulemylife -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:50:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Has someone made such a post? I had to look twice, but no, there is no vanilla cone next to your name.

eihwaz -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 4:52:35 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin [...] All miracles from the past if one observes the religious books, but why the past and not now, why is all this from a time that could not be empiracly examined, did they actually occur, or were they reported on at a later date ? [...] Where have all the miracles gone ? To appreciate a miracle, you have to experience the world mythically. Since, in general, people (at least in the West) don't perceive the world mythically anymore, God has discontinued miracles because humans wouldn't understand them if they did happen. Instead of appreciating a miracle's meaning, we'd send an army of scientists out to study it. Or: There never were any miracles. The stories of the Bible imported accounts of actual, unusual natural occurrences across time and space into stories of human affairs to create a mythic expression of truth or belief. The story of the exodus of the Hebrew slaves from Egypt is a powerful myth, whether historically accurate or not. The American civil rights movement adopted it. The passage through the waters of the Red Sea signifies the birth of the Jews as a free people.

thishereboi -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 5:14:22 PM)
quote: I don't recall seeing anyone attacking the women who wear burkas. What I recall are those who questioned a society that demanded women to dress like that in the heat of a desert. What I recall is the questioning of societies where women are viewed as chattel and forced to conceal every inch of their bodies. This wasn't about whether or not it's ok to tell a women what to wear. It was about whether or not tazzy has a right to stick up for christians even though that's not her thing. Do try to keep up. And for the record, I not only saw someone verbally attack a clerk at CVS for her outfit, I called him on his ignorant ass.

gungadin09 -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 7:05:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aneirin All miracles from the past if one observes the religious books, but why the past and not now, why is all this from a time that could not be empiracly examined, did they actually occur, or were they reported on at a later date ? i'm not sure all miracles are from the distant past. Take WWII. Some of the events contributing to the Allied victory could easily be described as miracles. Apollo 13 making it back to Earth. Do you know that the one person who died on the Lewis and Clark Expedition died from appendicitis, which was incurable at the time anyway? Spontaneous remissions from cancer do happen. i'm sure Catholics can tell you about all kinds of modern miracles. Doesn't the Catholic church have a whole department for that kind of thing? i'm sure God, if there is a God, doles out miracles exactly how he wants. You'll have to ask him for the reason. Maybe, and i'm just speculating here, but maybe God doesn't want to make such an obvious show of miracles in modern times, since he places so much value on faith. Maybe he thinks that giving people empiricle evidence of his existence would make it too easy for people to believe in him, and that would defeat the purpose of testing them in the first place. Now as humanity has progressed to the point where one person or a small group of like minded persons can initiate the destruction of all life on earth, why is God not making his presence felt more forcibly, for surely destruction of all life on earth is his concern or is it true God gave the planet to the humans to do with as they wish ? Because God, if he exists, probably doesn't feel obliged to do whatever people tell him that he should. Also, the story of Adam and Eve is an example of God allowing people use their free will to do things that God doesn't approve of. And how do you know that God hasn't prevented the earth's destruction? We're all still here. We haven't been hit by a gigantic meteor or faced a nuclear holocast yet. But going back to those biblical times when the population of the planet was far less than it is now and education was not as widespread perhaps people could be swayed by the magnificent miracles, but why choose to perform for a minority of the ignorant rather than the majority of the educated, what is the problem, what is he afraid of ? You should really ask him that question. If God exists then he's the only one qualified to answer questions about why he did what he did. Maybe because he thought the ignorant minority were more worthy than the educated majority? Why such an interest in the people of planet Earth in the ancient past, but seemingly not so now and I say that because of what we know of the natural occurances that wipe out millions of people indiscriminantly saint and sinner in one go, the tsunamis and earth quakes of recent times, events which in the ancient past undoubtedly would have been attributed to the hand of god and those killed be labelled as some sort of evil God wished to destroy or make an example of ? How can you possibly be sure that God doesn't create tsunamis? pam

MstrPBK -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 7:13:04 PM)
When god packed her cosmic carpet bag; she took the remaining miracles with her ... MstrPBK St. Paul, MN USA

gungadin09 -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 7:22:40 PM)
i just thought i'd add: "God" is on my friends list. Check it out. pam

LaTigresse -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 7:32:59 PM)
I firmly believe that little gray morel mushrooms are a miracle and me finding several pounds of them while out hiking today is an even BIGGER miracle. No miracle at all that I cooked them perfectly and now have a very happy tummy!!!!

tweakabelle -> RE: Where have all the miracles gone ? (4/30/2011 7:35:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl I have yet to see anyone demand any atheist to believe in god... in the supernatural... in spirituality... in anything. Here's a few instances: Every day at school from the date I ceased believing (about age 10) I was forced to pretend to believe in Catholicism. Had I stated my beliefs I would have been expelled. At many faith based schools, the same holds true today. At the William Booth Institute (a rehab facility) in Sydney, run by the Salvation Army, compulsory attendance at religious services/prayer meetings is enforced rigourously. The penalty for non-attendance is exclusion from the facility. I'm told this practice is not uncommon among faith-run rehabilitation services here and internationally. The underlying principle here - there can be no recovery from addiction (a health issue) without spiritual belief - is an obscene delusion. This compulsion to believe is even worse when the vulnerability of children/recovering addicts is taken into account. It is abusive in every sense of the word. Historically there are innumerable instances of "convert or die", the forcible conversion of Jews and Moors in Spain following the Christian re-conquest being one well known example. Whilst it is not a universal phenomenon, the tendency for many people of many faiths to force their views on non-believers is real and incontrovertible.

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