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Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 1:54:51 PM   
NorthernGent


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Status: offline 		Those who think so: what is the end goal, and who or what decides it?

Those who disagree: does this mean there is no such thing as 'better'? only different.

Interested to hear views.

Thanks in advance.

As usual don't have the time to respond to all, so will pick out a couple who agree with me and a couple who disagree.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 1:59:56 PM   
tazzygirl


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Status: offline 		Robert Wuhl's Assume the Position 2 is something the man and I love to catch on TV. Check it out. He answers your questions... in a comical fashion.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:03:52 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Er um...say what?

History is the branch of knowledge dealing with past events.

Are you asking, can history (our knowledge of the past) reflect on or inform our future in terms of human progress?

Yes, I think it can.




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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:13:40 PM   
pahunkboy


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Status: offline 		No it isn't.

Alot of history is distorted.  People also forget the lessons- so how can relearning what we should already know be progress.

To  me it is entirely frustrating.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:19:16 PM   
Wheldrake


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Status: offline 		I think he's asking one of two related questions (and I'm not sure which):

1. Has there been progress throughout history?

2. Is progress throughout history inevitable (in which case progress can be expected to continue in the future)?

I would answer "yes" to the first version of the question, just because I prefer the world as it exists now to the world that existed at the dawn of humanity. Life is richer now and contains many more possibilities. For one thing, there may have been some BDSM play in Palaeolithic camps, but I'll bet they didn't have latex dildos.

My answer to the second version of the question would be negative. Sooner or later, it's all going to fall apart.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:29:35 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

2. Is progress throughout history inevitable (in which case progress can be expected to continue in the future)?



For clarity's sake.

The question is this: is human history one of progress, past and future?

I didn't include 'inevitable' in my OP as progress could quite easily be a result of a random string of events (depending on point of view).

Hope this helps.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:35:57 PM   
Wheldrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

2. Is progress throughout history inevitable (in which case progress can be expected to continue in the future)?



For clarity's sake.

The question is this: is human history one of progress, past and future?

I didn't include 'inevitable' in my OP as progress could quite easily be a result of a random string of events (depending on point of view).

Hope this helps.


Fair enough. But if we're talking about a random string of events, there's really no basis for expecting it to continue into the future. Any prediction of future progress has to be based on some positive reason for thinking that continued progress is likely, if not necessarily inevitable.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:40:37 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

2. Is progress throughout history inevitable (in which case progress can be expected to continue in the future)?



For clarity's sake.

The question is this: is human history one of progress, past and future?

I didn't include 'inevitable' in my OP as progress could quite easily be a result of a random string of events (depending on point of view).

Hope this helps.


Fair enough. But if we're talking about a random string of events, there's really no basis for expecting it to continue into the future. Any prediction of future progress has to be based on some positive reason for thinking that continued progress is likely, if not necessarily inevitable.



As I said, I didn't include 'inevitable' in the interests of keeping the OP as open as possible for different points of view to emerge.

I would agree with you in the sense that progress suggests that there is a positive/a better (as opposed to merely a different).

It seems you don't agree that human history, or human existence, is one defined by progress.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:52:02 PM   
JohnWarren


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Status: offline 		History like evolution.  Simple adaption to a current reality.  Progress is something created so people will get out of bed in the morning.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:53:50 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

History like evolution.  Simpe adaption to a current reality.  Progress is something created so people will get out of bed in the morning.



Created as in an illusion?

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:55:09 PM   
Wheldrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

As I said, I didn't include 'inevitable' in the interests of keeping the OP as open as possible for different points of view to emerge.

I would agree with you in the sense that progress suggests that there is a positive/a better (as opposed to merely a different).

It seems you don't agree that human history, or human existence, is one defined by progress.


I think "better" is always going to be subjective because different people value different things. For me, if you look at the broad sweep of human history, some things have improved (according to my subjective concept of improvement) and other things have got worse. For example, the technology and knowledge we've mastered since the origin of the human species have opened up many new possibilities and made the world more interesting. On the other hand, life is probably more stultifyingly bureaucratic now than ever before, and industrialisation has badly damaged the global ecosystem. If you list all the positives in one column and all the negatives in another, I would say that things have on balance got better, but that's a subjective judgement that comes from a balancing of different factors.

As for history being defined by progress, I think the human urge to explore and invent does create a powerful impetus towards what I would consider to be progress. However, this is limited by two factors. First, we'll eventually reach the point where we've found out almost everything about the universe that can be known, and invented almost everything that can reasonably be invented. Second, the basic physical resources that drive progress are going to run out sooner or later. For these reasons, I don't believe that anything I would recognise as progress can be sustained indefinitely. And it's also possible that we'll simply take a wrong turn (as Chinese civilisation did, I would argue, in the 15th century) and create political conditions that will bring progress more or less to a halt.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 2:56:41 PM   
Real0ne


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Status: offline 		as usual in these types of questions what is "better"  what is "progress" and who decides?  I notice a few posed that or similar already.

better, progress, and in what?  physical? spiritual? temporal? toys? what?

everyone is left to conjure up some vision of what it is you ask and respond to subjectively rather than objectively to any core value.


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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 3:06:57 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

For example, the technology and knowledge we've mastered since the origin of the human species have opened up many new possibilities and made the world more interesting.



Agreed.

Difficult to argue with technological progress or wrestling learning from the grasp of the church and other central bodies/institutions.

Would you say we are more free (define freedom as you will) and more rational? or is techonological progress confused with being liberated and rational?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

First, we'll eventually reach the point where we've found out almost everything about the universe that can be known, and invented almost everything that can reasonably be invented.



Which in itself suggests there is progress and there is an end goal.

I would disagree with you in the sense that I believe we don't know anywhere near as much about the world as we'd like to think.

The brightest minds that have ever walked this planet have argued themselves into a philosophical cul-de-sac.

< Message edited by NorthernGent -- 4/30/2011 3:07:47 PM >

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 3:08:03 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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quote:

For clarity's sake.

The question is this: is human history one of progress, past and future?

I didn't include 'inevitable' in my OP as progress could quite easily be a result of a random string of events (depending on point of view).

Hope this helps.


Well gee, heck no. Human history is not about progress, it's about education. Did you learn the lessons of the past? If you didn't, you WILL be destined to repeat them.



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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 3:31:10 PM   
Wheldrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Would you say we are more free (define freedom as you will) and more rational? or is techonological progress confused with being liberated and rational?


Sure, we're more free and rational, although the bar was set pretty low back in the Stone Age. People would have believed all kinds of crazy things and been subject to the will of tribal leaders, and technological limitations would have constrained the options available to the average person in any case. If you can take a jet from Nairobi to Naples, or Newcastle, you have more freedom (in one important sense) than someone who can only walk across several miles of savannah in the same amount of time. And I would say that freedom and rationality have probably increased, at least in the West, even in the past 50 years. But freedom and rationality aren't everything.


quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wheldrake

First, we'll eventually reach the point where we've found out almost everything about the universe that can be known, and invented almost everything that can reasonably be invented.



Which in itself suggests there is progress and there is an end goal.



Yes, but I've only described my end goal. We may never get there because of political problems and/or resource limitations, and I suspect that other widely shared end goals (like world peace) are even less likely to be achieved. I can easily imagine civilisation running out of fossil fuels before a viable substitute is available, and collapsing back into a struggle for survival on very basic terms. I keep meaning to write a kinky novel about it, actually, since a revival of such delicious things as slavery and torture would seem like a definite possibility under those circumstances.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
I would disagree with you in the sense that I believe we don't know anywhere near as much about the world as we'd like to think.

The brightest minds that have ever walked this planet have argued themselves into a philosophical cul-de-sac.


That's kind of my point - that sooner or later you hit the damn cul-de-sac, because there's a limit to what's knowable in principle. Philosophy may already have discovered all of the major logical possibilities in both ethics and metaphysics, in which case there's not much left for philosophers to do apart from filling in some details.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 4:21:34 PM   
Aneirin


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Status: offline 		History, whose history, the recorded history, the winners history, the losers history or the actual history, as it occurs that if winners or dominant authorities write the history, the true history will be lost and therefore we cannot learn from it and so we continue to recreate the same problems.

But it is said to foretell the future one must look at history, but if the history is agenda driven and there suspect we can learn nothing of use.

Perhaps it would be better if history was forgotten so we may move into the future with an open mind and perhaps create a better history for the future.

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 4:25:34 PM   
vincentML


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quote:

Sure, we're more free and rational, although the bar was set pretty low back in the Stone Age. People would have believed all kinds of crazy things and been subject to the will of tribal leaders,


If that is your metric then nothing much has changed. You don't think people today believe in all kinds of crazy things? New communications technology has made it easier to believe in all sorts of conspiracies. We are a carneval of conspiracy theories. So, we are regressing are we not?

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 4:38:07 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

History is the branch of knowledge dealing with past events.


Would you entertaine the concept that history is somewhat more than just past events but also the mindsets,personalities and unique circumstances that shaped those events?
Are there certain trends and currents that flow throughout history?

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 5:36:15 PM   
Real0ne


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

History, whose history, the recorded history, the winners history, the losers history or the actual history, as it occurs that if winners or dominant authorities write the history, the true history will be lost and therefore we cannot learn from it and so we continue to recreate the same problems.

But it is said to foretell the future one must look at history, but if the history is agenda driven and there suspect we can learn nothing of use.

Perhaps it would be better if history was forgotten so we may move into the future with an open mind and perhaps create a better history for the future.


book burnings, today its court cases that do not get published and often cases are stripped completely from the record! 

Case in point where the was ordered to pay his debt in coffee beans instead of the federal reserve notes we use for money!  Gone simply blasted out of existence by those in power who wish to insure their power continues and also proof the system they use is purely fraud on its face.

the history of "winners" is the predominant history that is commonly taught and supports lord/vassal thinking.

each aggregate rendition of a dictionary strips a little more of the true meaning of words and many today have been completely reversed, not because they need to be for some benevolent reason but to protect those who are in power.






< Message edited by Real0ne -- 4/30/2011 5:40:31 PM >

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RE: Is history progress? - 4/30/2011 5:44:28 PM   
ChatteParfaitt


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Status: offline 		Of course, when you are talking history, you are talking the interpretation of past events.

Again, of course there are trends that flow through history, but that is such a broad conception, it  extends beyond the scope of human existence. You need to narrow your focus and define what you mean by progress.


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