RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there.

RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (Full Version)

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thompsonx -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 10:35:23 AM)
fr: For gawd's sake ken, don't shoot it's not the rapid dog it's only ron "birddoggin"

LafayetteLady -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 10:55:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The purpose of a trial is to determine innocence or guilt. In this case their was no question about his guilt. The purpose of a trial is to establish facts surrounding guilt or innocence. Even if you plea "guilty", you are allowed to make statements of fact surrounding that plea. Many people have questions surrounding OBL's role in these attacks, unfortunately, those questions will be conveniently unanswered. Not sure where you get your legal information, but I suggest you stop using it. When someone enters a "guilty" plea, they do NOT get to make a statement of facts. What you are attempting to address is during the sentencing phase, where a defendant has the right to point out the MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES that led to the crime. Mitigating circumstances are NOT statements of fact necessarily, but the defendant's justification of why the crime was committed.

EvilAndFantasy -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 10:59:41 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Ishtarr I really don't want to debate this, because I don't think it will serve a purpose, and I know that just this one post will stir up enough negative reactions as it is, but... I've been reading the Osama topics going on, and I'm struck by how many Americans are celebrating Osama being shot without trial. quote: Without a trial he pulled a automatic weapon out, he pulled a woman in front of him so he wouldn't get shot and brought up his weapon to fire. He was a coward or he would have been the one flying the planes at 9/11. You seem to forget he has been sought for more then just the 9 1/2 years sense 9/11 he claimed responsibility for the actions and was pleased with the results he admitted it on video countless times. Just because you say you don't understand what he is saying in those videos I am sure that the Arab speaking Americans would translate them to be the same as the media or pretty close to it. The only thing that US did illegal if it was illegal is cross the border to Pakistan and if I am not mistaken we had permission to be there... mnottertail Last but not least the 5th amendment is for American citizens not foreign murderers

mnottertail -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 11:02:01 AM)
I don't know how my good name got in that fuckin rats nest, but it has aught to do with me.

LafayetteLady -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 11:20:11 AM)
OP, do you even have access to the news? An attempt was made to "take him alive." He resisted. In civilian vs. civilian matters, ones is only allowed to use a like amount of force. This was NOT a civilian matter. In any case, if one uses that LEGAL issue, the US still was more moral, ethical and rational than OBL, his followers and the countries hiding him. Why? On September 11th, those people got on planes to go places, went to work at the Twin Towers without thinking "how can I take action against those who disagree with me?" OBL and his followers plotted for several years on how to take out their vengence on our country. Not against our leaders or the military that they may have believed were oppressing them, but on people that probably spent very little time every day thinking about the terrorists other than a passing thought or discussion with friends and/or colleagues. Also, you must keep in mind that you can't compare our military actions with the actions of an extremist group. Innocent people do die in military actions, but not due to careful planning and plotting to do so. OBL knew he was a wanted man and intentionally continued to hide and evade capture and the legal process you seem to know little about. He was caught, he was surrounded, he was TOLD to surrender. A rational person, when surrounded by several men pointing guns at them, telling them to surrender, would do so. OBL did NOT want to be taken alive. If he did, he had every opportunity to do so. Then it wouldn't be as easy to portray himself as dying for his cause, would it? It wouldn't be so easy for him to try to justify his actions in a court of law. And let's talk about this fantasical trial so many people are now whining should have happened. Who would represent him? Any lawyer from his home country would need to be licensed to practice law in the United States, or get special permission from the Federal Courts along with having a US law firm admitted to argue in Federal Court (and no, not all attorneys are) agreeing to "oversee" this foreign lawyer. What law firm would voluntarily do that and forever have the reputation as representing the foremost terrorist in history? Whine and cry and bitch about "justice" being served properly all you want, but the practice of law is also a business, and these people need to feed their families. Their practices would go bankrupt if they took on the task. While incarcerated, the risk of OBL's escape and the actions of his followers to break him out would be a real worry. Yes, we now need to be concerned about retaliation for his killing, but their main leader is now dead, and they are currently in a state of disorganization. Know what that means? Mistakes get made and catching what's left of the top guys becomes easier. Without their top leaders, what are they capable of? The majority of followers are just that, followers. They do what they are told, they don't mastermind the schemes. What's truly sad is that no matter how the US handled this matter, there will always be those who don't like how it was done and think they could have done it better. The million dollar question is then why the hell didn't all those thinking it should have been done this way or that actually do it? Monday morning quarterbacking or 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing, but totally useless.

mnottertail -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 11:25:32 AM)
For some of you folks, I need you to know that Ishtarr is not native to this country, and can be forgiven outright for questioning the difference between the 'PR'ed for public consumption, beacon of freedom and righteousness' US and the 'real, joe six pack' US. But it is a valid wonderment, not reprehensible spin bullshit.

thishereboi -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 11:25:50 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 There are far far more things in common and that we all share with every person on the earth,then what devides us.Culture,religion,color,sexuality,customs and languages are just a percentage of a percentage compared to the thousands of things all humans share. We must not focus on what devides people or seek to exploit those differences.This us against "them" mentality is a race to the bottom. quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 He also saved GM from collapse and they are now turning a profit.Chrysler just announced turning a profit for the 1st time since you cons fucked American`s economy up. There`s two more smart good things President Obama did. And he can take ALL the credit b/c you cons voted against everything President Obama did to clean up your money mess. That`s going to be qiute a bit to answer to in November.

Sanity -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:05:06 PM)
[:)] Good catch, boi.

Ishtarr -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:14:55 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady OP, do you even have access to the news? An attempt was made to "take him alive." He resisted. I follow the news. Don't tell me that the best of the best and bravest and most highly trained specialized troops America has to offer isn't capable of arresting somebody who is resisting... especially not when they have an almost unlimited budget at their disposal. Now, have YOU actually read anything from my posts? I wasn't offering any hindsight, nor did I say I could have done better, nor was I arguing he didn't deserve to die. I was asking about American's reaction to what happened, in fact, about exactly the type of reaction you are having... I was asking about the fact that American view and portray themselves and their morals and their ideals and their ethics as one way, but that in the end, they have the populations cheering because -not despite- not living up to those portrays. I was asking about why American seem glad that they have shown the world that hatred will be met with hatred, instead of with the ideals of justice, morality and rationality that they claim to stand for. Because that's the message America has send: We will respond in hatred to those who hate us... Which is fine for me even, I don't have a problem at all with that responds, but it makes me question why -if that's the way Americans feel- the portray of the American idea on morality in these kind of issues is the absolute opposite of how the American populous actually choses to react... Ishtar

Aylee -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:16:33 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You ask if I know the difference between an enemy and a criminal, this question posed by you shows that you do not understand it yourself. The words define concepts that are not mutually exclusive, and supposedly under the international treaties we signed on to, war is only justified based on the criminal behavior of leaders. Obviously you do NOT understand the difference. If the Geneva Convention is in play then it is a war. That makes the other side the enemy. These folks are dealt with my the military. If it is not a war, you have a criminal. Criminals are dealt with by the police and the court system. Furthermore, no matter how much you may want to know what OBL was thinking, a courtroom and trial is not the same as a shrink's office.

tazzygirl -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:36:51 PM)
quote: Because that's the message America has send: We will respond in hatred to those who hate us... If thats the message you see... and I dont believe you would willingly speak for anyone other than yourself... you have missed the message.

juliaoceania -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:41:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania In my reality confessing to the crime does not equate guilt. What color is the sky on your planet? I think this is why you make no sense to me. So you think that there have never, in the history of mankind, been false confessions? I can imagine I would make little sense to you, because you only want to view things through the lens you want to see them through, any other perspective than your own you treat with contempt as if having a different perspective than your own is something that automatically deserves to be treated with derision..... I have little use for such conversations, they tend not to elicit any sort of productive results.

Ishtarr -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:41:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl quote: Because that's the message America has send: We will respond in hatred to those who hate us... If thats the message you see... and I dont believe you would willingly speak for anyone other than yourself... you have missed the message. There have been headlines and t-shirts wishing him to rot in hell. Pretty much every culture I know see that as hatred... I those type of messages don't indicate a message of hatred coming from the American populous, I'd like to hear why tazzy.

juliaoceania -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:43:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Aylee quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania You ask if I know the difference between an enemy and a criminal, this question posed by you shows that you do not understand it yourself. The words define concepts that are not mutually exclusive, and supposedly under the international treaties we signed on to, war is only justified based on the criminal behavior of leaders. Obviously you do NOT understand the difference. If the Geneva Convention is in play then it is a war. That makes the other side the enemy. These folks are dealt with my the military. If it is not a war, you have a criminal. Criminals are dealt with by the police and the court system. Furthermore, no matter how much you may want to know what OBL was thinking, a courtroom and trial is not the same as a shrink's office. Illogical, we try people who are enemies as criminals all of the time, the fact of the matter is that someone can be a criminal and an enemy at the same time. We do not exempt enemies from justice.

juliaoceania -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:47:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LafayetteLady quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: The purpose of a trial is to determine innocence or guilt. In this case their was no question about his guilt. The purpose of a trial is to establish facts surrounding guilt or innocence. Even if you plea "guilty", you are allowed to make statements of fact surrounding that plea. Many people have questions surrounding OBL's role in these attacks, unfortunately, those questions will be conveniently unanswered. Not sure where you get your legal information, but I suggest you stop using it. When someone enters a "guilty" plea, they do NOT get to make a statement of facts. What you are attempting to address is during the sentencing phase, where a defendant has the right to point out the MITIGATING CIRCUMSTANCES that led to the crime. Mitigating circumstances are NOT statements of fact necessarily, but the defendant's justification of why the crime was committed. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm00625.htm Covers federal plea agreement rules, and how pleas are come to, accepted, etc etc etc quote: Even though the court accepts a guilty plea, it is prohibited under Fed. R. Crim. P. 11(f) from entering a judgment upon that plea unless it first makes a satisfactory inquiry that the plea has a factual basis

thompsonx -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:53:16 PM)
quote: And let's talk about this fantasical trial so many people are now whining should have happened. Who would represent him? Any lawyer from his home country would need to be licensed to practice law in the United States, or get special permission from the Federal Courts along with having a US law firm admitted to argue in Federal Court (and no, not all attorneys are) agreeing to "oversee" this foreign lawyer. What law firm would voluntarily do that and forever have the reputation as representing the foremost terrorist in history? Whine and cry and bitch about "justice" being served properly all you want, but the practice of law is also a business, and these people need to feed their families. Their practices would go bankrupt if they took on the task. John adams, the second president of the u.s., was the defense atourney for the officers and men of the british army who perpetrated the boston masacre. He got them off with nothing more than a slap on the wrist...or rather a brand on the thumb for one enlisted man.

kdsub -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:54:54 PM)
Your problem my friend is the same for most Muslims... you can't separate religion from government and thus Christianity from the United States. There may be a lot of truth to our involvement in the Middle East based on oil but none based on religion. There is no desire for a Christian Crusade in America…most , in my opinion, care little about Muslims in Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran or Afghanistan. I believe many Muslims have been brain washed by corrupt governments using Israel and the United States as scapegoats to deflect local unrest. Bin Laden was a mad dog and deserved to die exactly as he did… He and many radical Muslims bastardized their own religion and killed more Muslims then Infidels. His preaching of hate will continue to kill until this boil of humanity is cut from our bodies. If he had wanted to surrender he had 10 years…He made war on us and reaped his just reward….Fuck him and anyone who defends him. Butch

juliaoceania -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:55:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: mnottertail quote: ORIGINAL: juliaoceania quote: But he is a casualty of war by any logic, even left-right catcalling is extremely subdued on this. It's constitutional, it is agreed by the majority of the US as right and proper. It's what's on the cart. I would agree that there is no way that anyone could assert the US did anything improper in this case. We were not there, we did not see the choices that were available to the Navy Seals who executed this action, I surely am not going to say they did anything "wrong", couldn't prove it, either way. And I see very clearly and find myself in some floss wrapped untouchable agreement with many of your points stated clearly and logically and strewn about this thread. I suffer a vast moral turpitude, and that does not give me firm footing to argue decisively for one and against another view. I can only plead mugwumpery. Same as an abortion debate here. I am not committed in the same way because of circumstance that another may be. I find that many here are seeing red about my points, and I can understand it because they are just glad he is dead.... any sort of questioning as to what OBL may have offered up in the way of information that could undermine his organization, or even the lines from which he was funded (and we do not know all of the funding sources of al Qaeda)... all of that is just lost. It is one thing to say that it may have been better to take him alive for many reasons, and to debate that, it is another to say that our men in uniform acted wrongly, or that our Commander in Chief acted incorrectly... I have no facts to support that assertion. I do have some suspicions they never intended to take him alive, and not for completely altruistic reasons. I think that OBL was at least blowback, and some of his information from his CIA operative days could implicate some very powerful people. Thanks for understanding the thrust of my posts here, it seems you are the only one[:D]

tazzygirl -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:57:47 PM)
quote: There have been headlines and t-shirts wishing him to rot in hell. Pretty much every culture I know see that as hatred... I those type of messages don't indicate a message of hatred coming from the American populous, I'd like to hear why tazzy. quote: Because that's the message America has send: We will respond in hatred to those who hate us... We have this little idea called... freedom of speech. Individuals may say what they wish... even as a collective group. Its the actions or results of those words that may bring about problems. Im not aware of anyone taking out any retribution against Islamic or Muslim people that have not ended up in court, are you? Even the cab driver who was viciously attacked ended up in jail. Many people have declared their hatred over the attacks and deaths of US citizens on US soil and abroad. Many, many many have declared this hatred. Yet so few have acted upon it. I can hate a sepcific act. Im sure you can too. And I can rant about that act, Im sure you can too. But to take it to the level of hatred that bin Ladin and his group took it too.... you have not seen that. Is it a matter of degrees? I would say yes. 3 May 2011 Last updated at 13:03 ET Help The death of Osama Bin Laden has provoked a strong reaction from India, Pakistan's neighbour and long-term rival. The government said it welcomed his killing but criticised Pakistan for harbouring militants. It called on Islamabad to arrest the people it blames for organising the 2008 Mumbai attacks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13272502 Seems once again the "bad boys" on the block had to do the dirty work. No one else would, but everyone is thankful we did.

thompsonx -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 12:57:50 PM)
quote: OBL and his followers plotted for several years on how to take out their vengence on our country. You say he was seeking vengence. What was he seeking vengence for?

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