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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 6:32:09 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

quote:

I am afraid your logic is beyond me:

It's not uncommon for you.


Then perhaps you might explane just how that logic works that has his followers pissed if we capture him but somehow not pissed if we just kill him?
or:
Is this you just running your mouth because you have nothing to say?

(in reply to Icarys)
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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 6:39:08 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		It has nothing to do with what he did first. He knew there was a bounty from the US on his head, he knew there were warrants for his arrest and yet he CHOSE to evade arrest and bring brought forward to face the allegations against him. He could have determined AND CONTROLLED the outcome by simply turning himself into the US and saying okay let's go to trial. HE CHOSE not too.

If you want to feel better OP, think of him as a casualty of war. Because that's exactly what he was. A Man resisting the US forces and he died because of it. He had ample opportunity to surrender. The US' morality isn't at all compromised.

The US responds to THREATS, and we indicated that we did just that. I find it odd you are using words like vengence kill. Why? Because a Man was killed in the course of a war and this man just happened to be a Man who had a warrant out for his arrest? The US isn't full of saints, Ishtar, they are full of people. I don't believe there really was a person in this country who hasn't been negatively affected by the actions of this man against us. Is it HATE? No, i really don't think it is, its the simple truth of feeling. For each person you speak with, there will be a different emotion. So i really do wish people would stop implying that the US HATES OBL. I think for many his death brings closure not hate and not joy, simply closure.

Please do not martyr him and place emotion of the US as a whole for him as hate. Because while some may rejoice and there is excitement and relief with his death and yes, celebration -- i think the truth of the matter is -- the feelings of people as a whole is arbitrary. He died like he lived -- in violence. I don't have any issues with his choice to do so.

angel

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(in reply to thompsonx)


Was this post addressed to me?

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 6:42:29 PM   
jlf1961


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quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha

I took it to mean you conservatives...was I wrong??


Good question. boi usually refers to 'them' as conservatives, however in this topic, he could be referring to moralists.

I can see the whole "moral" action argument.

Unfortunately, the United States has a long history of people being "wanted dead or alive," and President Bush made reference to that mentality at least once.

Morally we should have taken him alive, however, it is also hard to maintain a higher moral ground when you consider everything he was responsible. Speaking as a Army Vet, if it had been my unit on the op, and I was first in the room, I would be thinking of a friend of mine that died on 9/11 and probably pulled the trigger on him.

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 6:51:36 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		And that is where we differ, for myself as ex military, my training was paramount, well above any personal thoughts, as I knew full well the consequences of those, as UK law does not protect anyone who acts outside of the regulations.

And believe me, there has been situations where a gentle squeeze on that piece of curved metal would sate my personal desire, but to be treated as a criminal by your own country for acting out of jurisdiction was akin to treason in many ways.

And as we know, the populace is fickle, so easily turned by the right agenda, for what the public knows, the rabid media tells them.

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 6:54:45 PM   
starshineowned


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quote:


You really believe he was shot... twice, with perfect aim... one in the head and one in the chest, like they are trained to do... because he resisted?

If US Navy Seals -the best of the best, the bravest of the brave- can't detain an unarmed elderly man they should have send Mall Cops instead... they're pretty proficient at doing just that...

He was assassinated... and I personally have no moral problem with it whatsoever, I think he deserved it, it's in line with MY personal moral code.

However, I also think that it's not in line with the values America and American portray themselves to have, and with the moral code they often so proudly tout America to be all about in the rest of the world.

I'm curious that Americans are not even for a second considering the fact that if their own morality as they portray it to the world isn't in line with their action, they may have to have some self-examination to do to figure out why exactly that is.

Ishtar


I can sit and speculate all I wish to as to what options the SEALS had during this operation. One thing I am pretty clear on is that regardless of what they could of done..it would not be done if in any way, shape or form it could compromise their men or the mission, and unless they speak or we were there..speculation is pointless.

As far as American morals and values go..simply because the majority may sway and aspire a certain direction does not mean All Americans carry that same aspiration. The fact that we on a whole as a nation have such a moral and value platform in place does not mean as a nation we are perfect..but atleast it is a step in the right direction don't you think? The American people will way on this and ponder and dissect it many times over and I'm sure somewhere down the road rules of engagement and more clearly defined definitions will ensue.

Adding this in now: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_bin_laden

Now we can all sit I guess and say we don't believe it..it was a cover up story to denounce that he was a helpless old man sitting there chanting: Hell no I won't go!

starshine

< Message edited by starshineowned -- 5/4/2011 7:06:50 PM >

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 6:58:30 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I knew full well the consequences of those, as UK law does not protect anyone who acts outside of the regulations.


The same applies here.
Have you read the article in rolling stone about the "kill team". If I remember one is doing 25 years and another 20 with more courts martial to come.

(in reply to Aneirin)
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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 7:08:49 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		Nope, I do not read military anymore, that ended with my military career, now I seek peace and understanding between peoples, not 'my way or look down the barrel of my gun'. Oddly many of those whom I know that were also military, also seek similar ideals to myself, having seen it, been there, done that, they like me know it is not the right way for war solves nothing and is an ultimate waste of people, resources and money and is in fact a failure of diplomacy, there indicating our highly paid politicians are not fit for the job or for the sake of conspiracy, they aspire to other agenda.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 7:31:15 PM   
thompsonx


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quote:

Nope, I do not read military anymore


Rolling stone is hardly a military magazin.

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 8:01:27 PM   
jlf1961


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Status: offline 		If you get a link to anything dealing with Osama Bin Laden's death, images or video, do not click on it. People have gotten viruses, spyware, malware and ransomware (programs designed to look like antivirus but is actually a scheme to get you to pay periodically to keep it from hijacking your system. You have to do a complete restore to get rid of it.)

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 8:13:46 PM   
thishereboi


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Status: offline 		boi is a she and she wasn't refering to anything, she was quoting what owner said.

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 8:16:58 PM   
thishereboi


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

Besides if he had been captured and brought back to the US for a trial it would more than likely had been an all out invitation to take hundreds of Americans as hostage to get him released.


I am afraid your logic is beyond me:
...if we put him in the joint they will take hostages.
...if we kill him it's like "kings x"???
Are you saying that you do not feel there will be any animosity towords the u.s. by his followers?
How do you think the american people would react if an arab hit team whaked the president?
Time will tell how this thing will play out.


I think the key point is taking the hostages to get him released. Once he is dead, they can take as many hostages as they want, he's not coming back.


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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 8:34:25 PM   
pyroaquatic


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From: Pyroaquatica
Status: offline 		There is not enough information yet for my tastes so I have not been following this story as close as some.

I am not a violent person. Yet I am able to exact a defense in the presence of it. The mentality of the death of this Osama is absurd. Dancing like jackasses just like Osama (and all of the us haters) did after the 9/11 aftermath waving our banners and screaming our hoorahs.

Morally? This was to be expected. The general US population were playing games like Kill the Osama long before we pulled the trigger. Morals can only last so long in the pretense of civility, war, lust, love, greed, and human nature in general.

Groups like to wear masks representing what they would like to come off as. This mask does not represent the actual intentions of each individual's moral standing.

With Osama's death there is a loss of information we could have used to prevent such catastrophes from occurring again-especially from Osama's group. Even with the intention of misinformation there are teams of highly trained people able to extract what they need (without torture or barbiturates).

I am not booing or dancing over this death. My sadness comes from all who have died in this.


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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 8:49:27 PM   
Brain


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Status: offline 		The best reason I've heard for shooting him quickly is they were afraid he might become a suicide bomber and their lives were in danger, which I think is fair because I believe he said in the past they would not take him alive and it's not unreasonable to assume he wanted to be a martyr.

(in reply to Ishtarr)
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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/4/2011 9:30:21 PM   
slvemike4u


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From: United States
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

quote:

ORIGINAL: VideoAdminAlpha

This thread is abouit his death. Stay on topic please and feel free to start another thread if you would like to discuss conspiracies. This is not the thread to do it on.


Actually, it's not, but thank you for trying to steer it on topic.

I will try to make the topic more clear, seeing that I guess I was rather ambiguous in my first post.

This thread is about the fact that the American ideals of justice, morality, fairness and legality where disregarded by it's own government -maybe out of necessity, maybe not that isn't the point of this thread- and that the American people, as far as I can tell, cheer on the fact that the ideals they stand for have been offended against.

Shooting him may have been the only way... I don't care to debate whether or not that is true or not.

But, even IF shooting him was the only way, it's still not in line with American ideals of how criminals are supposed to be treated.

I don't understand how a population can feast BECAUSE -instead of despite- the fact that their ideals where offended against.

Thank you everybody for your perspectives.

Ishtar
Extra ordinary crimes often lead to extraordinary outcomes.This was one such case...some say we were at war,and therefore it was justified....but this was not a war like any other we have ever been involved in...this was a case of a man and his terrorist organization declaring war on the people of the US.How this was slated to end was decided long ago by Osama and his followers when they made that decision....no Nation State can allow war to be waged against it's citizens in such horrific fashion.....and not get down in the dirt to strike back.
Yes Americans cheered his death....they were ,for the most part,the same citizens that were horrified by the actions he set in motion on Sept.11.
And just to put a fine point on it...Americans cheering for the ultimate justice that occurred the other day are still head and shoulders,morally speaking,above the crowds that celebrated those buildings coming down....What exactly were those multitudes cheering for 10 years ago.
I don't like to paint with a broad brush....but I do remember the scenes from Islamic communities where OBL was cheered as a great warrior who laid the great Satan low...well if you are looking for something akin to poetic justice,perhaps you can console yourself that he died a "warriors" death(doesn't fit my picture...but have at it if you will).
bin Laden chose his path....when he put in motion Sept.11th....he signed his own death warrant.... my only complaint is that it took nearly 10 years too cash it in.
Signed....one very joyous American citizen(aka slave mike)


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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/5/2011 1:53:36 AM   
angelikaJ


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

I really don't want to debate this, because I don't think it will serve a purpose, and I know that just this one post will stir up enough negative reactions as it is, but...

I've been reading the Osama topics going on, and I'm struck by how many Americans are celebrating Osama being shot without trial.
In particular, I'm amazed at how, whenever somebody questions the legality, the fairness, the morality of the assassination, the overwhelming reply is: "he did it first!"

I want to take a moment here to examine that statement...

I have no doubt that Osama killed a very large number of innocent people, and deserved to get justice served to him for that, but the argument that he was the first in his act of aggression just doesn't hold up.

Prior to 9/11, American troops had already on several occasions invaded Muslim territory and, as a result, killed innocent civilians.
Prior to that, Muslims had done the same.
Prior to that, Christians had done the same.
Prior to that... all the way back to the Middle Ages, and the begin of the Islam.
Hell, even more prior than that, considering the fact that there was documented aggression between Bedouins and Christians before the Islam even existed.

In fact, at this point, it is entirely impossible to track back which side ACTUALLY did "it" first.

Ever side, ever time, will be able to point back to history and show how it was the other side who provoked the aggression first, and how their act of aggression was merely a reaction, and therefor justifiable.

Now, you may argue that Osama was guilty, and his victims where not, and I will agree with you on that. However, the fact that he was guilty and his victims innocent doesn't change the fact that in retaliation to his guilt, America invaded again and now too has again the blood of innocents on their hands.

My point in all of this is:

If "they started it" is justification for shooting on sight, it WILL go on forever, because both side will justify it was the other side's fault forever.

I had really hoped that on this occasion, America and Americans would have been able to live up to the ideal of fairness and moral justice they so like to lay claim to, and instead of just pettily reacting, had been "the bigger man" by making it their utmost goal to bring in Osama alive and let him stand trial and be sentenced for his deeds. Maybe followed by the death penalty, maybe by lifelong prison, I don't know, but I had hoped that instead of a reactive, instinctive vengeance killing, we would have gotten to see America distancing itself from the behaving in the same reactive instinctive vengeance killing way that Osama had when he planned 9/11.

If America would have been able to show the world that it would combat hatred with rationality and justice, I'm sure that most of the whole world would have watched in admiration and pride... but now... I just feel rather sick to my stomach, because this golden opportunity was missed, and in the end...

Nothing has changed...

Ishtar

Edited for spelling



I became very uncomfortable when the news was released that he was unarmed.

However, it does not change the fact that he was responsible for the deaths of 3,000 men women and children.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

He is a casualty of war. Right or wrong is there doubt of his guilt?

So we put him on public trial, and some years and legal manueverings later, he is electrified, hung, injected, shot or some other form of sendoff and the hue and cry of the dissenters would be kangaroo court. Meantime he is still the live martyr everyday on tv.

Dirtnappers fade from memory.

Morality is an ambivalence with me, bifuricated, a dilemma.

Is there ANY possible way this could have been handled without gainsay?

Nope.



I think his being dead is likely to cause less harm in terms of retaliation than his being alive.

Had he been captured then there would have been actions and attempted actions of terrorism to try to secure his freedom.
That can't happen now.

And as horrible and as fear driven as this may sound, as a war strategy, I can live with that.



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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/5/2011 3:02:23 AM   
SilverMark


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Real0ne

quote:

ORIGINAL: SilverMark

Oh yes please, let's bring him in for trial. Let's make a larger martyr of him to the Islamics who wish us ill. Let's creat a larger than life "innocent" being persecuted by the Big Bad Americans.


now that is an example of some seriously fucked up priorities!

giving him a trial is going to piss them off more than shooting an unarmed man.


Not quite bright enough for sarcasm?


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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/5/2011 3:19:01 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

boi is a she and she wasn't refering to anything, she was quoting what owner said.


awwww you do third person so well.

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/5/2011 5:48:41 AM   
barelynangel


Posts: 6233
Status: offline 		~~FR~~  I think its wise to remember Bin Laden CHOSE to evade capture and he resisted arrest for close to 10 years.  He knew he was considered armed and dangerous by the US. He was known for bombing things, he was known to at least have close access to automatic rifles.  He is believed to have no compunction about taking lives.   And he led people who had no problem using suicide to cause harm to others, and i believe he would have done the same.   This was the picture HE presented to the world and he advertised himself to be.  So yes, he decided how this would end.    And yes, i can see how anything he did in that room could have been considered a threat. 

quote:

But, even IF shooting him was the only way, it's still not in line with American ideals of how criminals are supposed to be treated.


Umm Ishtar this is false.  Criminals will be shot and killed if an officer feels the criminal is endangering them or civilians or an immediate threat because HIS actions.  I believe its the same concept within the military.  Most shootings of criminals -- EVEN IF they are unarmed but the police saw them as a immediate threat or believed they were acting in a way to provide an immediate threat, are considered justifiable.  That is just as much of an American Ideal as attempting to bring the criminal in to stand trial.

If the Seals felt his death was necessary -- i trust their judgment in this kill.  But i guess its easy to judge whether or not there was a threat and if US morality has been compromised, when you are sitting on your couch at home.

I also agree with others that his death is better for the safety of the US than his capture. 

angel

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/5/2011 9:31:06 AM   
thompsonx


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quote:

I think the key point is taking the hostages to get him released. Once he is dead, they can take as many hostages as they want, he's not coming back.



So those hostages would be faced with what fate???
Do you think there would be fewer killed in reprisals than otherwise?
Just how does the logic of that work?

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RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics ou... - 5/5/2011 10:25:33 AM   
tazzygirl


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quote:

So those hostages would be faced with what fate???
Do you think there would be fewer killed in reprisals than otherwise?
Just how does the logic of that work?


I believe her point is that there would be more leverage if he was still alive. Leverage placed by american public to do something to protect those who are taken.

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