A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (Full Version)

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Ishtarr -> A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:09:21 AM)

I really don't want to debate this, because I don't think it will serve a purpose, and I know that just this one post will stir up enough negative reactions as it is, but...

I've been reading the Osama topics going on, and I'm struck by how many Americans are celebrating Osama being shot without trial.
In particular, I'm amazed at how, whenever somebody questions the legality, the fairness, the morality of the assassination, the overwhelming reply is: "he did it first!"

I want to take a moment here to examine that statement...

I have no doubt that Osama killed a very large number of innocent people, and deserved to get justice served to him for that, but the argument that he was the first in his act of aggression just doesn't hold up.

Prior to 9/11, American troops had already on several occasions invaded Muslim territory and, as a result, killed innocent civilians.
Prior to that, Muslims had done the same.
Prior to that, Christians had done the same.
Prior to that... all the way back to the Middle Ages, and the begin of the Islam.
Hell, even more prior than that, considering the fact that there was documented aggression between Bedouins and Christians before the Islam even existed.

In fact, at this point, it is entirely impossible to track back which side ACTUALLY did "it" first.

Ever side, ever time, will be able to point back to history and show how it was the other side who provoked the aggression first, and how their act of aggression was merely a reaction, and therefor justifiable.

Now, you may argue that Osama was guilty, and his victims where not, and I will agree with you on that. However, the fact that he was guilty and his victims innocent doesn't change the fact that in retaliation to his guilt, America invaded again and now too has again the blood of innocents on their hands.

My point in all of this is:

If "they started it" is justification for shooting on sight, it WILL go on forever, because both side will justify it was the other side's fault forever.

I had really hoped that on this occasion, America and Americans would have been able to live up to the ideal of fairness and moral justice they so like to lay claim to, and instead of just pettily reacting, had been "the bigger man" by making it their utmost goal to bring in Osama alive and let him stand trial and be sentenced for his deeds. Maybe followed by the death penalty, maybe by lifelong prison, I don't know, but I had hoped that instead of a reactive, instinctive vengeance killing, we would have gotten to see America distancing itself from the behaving in the same reactive instinctive vengeance killing way that Osama had when he planned 9/11.

If America would have been able to show the world that it would combat hatred with rationality and justice, I'm sure that most of the whole world would have watched in admiration and pride... but now... I just feel rather sick to my stomach, because this golden opportunity was missed, and in the end...

Nothing has changed...

Ishtar

Edited for spelling




FirmhandKY -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:14:46 AM)

Interesting take on things Ish.

The Christian religion is partially based on the morality of "turning the other cheek", to break the cycle that you are pointing out.

But few have asked if the killing of OBL was moral: all the posts I have seen have simply questioned the legality of it, which is all I've addressed.

Your post is the first I've seen addressing the morality aspect of it.

I'll be interested in following the debate.

Firm




DomYngBlk -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:18:10 AM)

Mixing America in with the atrocities of other European Countries in the Middle East is not a fair argument. Don't paint with such a broad brush.





mnottertail -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:28:34 AM)

The morality is expedient, and acceptable in this case.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am5

He could have turned himself in.
The pakistanis could have given him over, instead of giving him haven.

Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

He is a casualty of war. Right or wrong is there doubt of his guilt?

So we put him on public trial, and some years and legal manueverings later, he is electrified, hung, injected, shot or some other form of sendoff and the hue and cry of the dissenters would be kangaroo court.  Meantime he is still the live martyr everyday on tv.

Dirtnappers fade from memory.

Morality is an ambivalence with me, bifuricated, a dilemma.

Is there  ANY possible way this could have been handled without gainsay?

Nope.

So, I dunno.  Some will sleep well at night over this, others will toss and turn.  I am going to get my snore on tonight and leave the morality of this one for the prophetics.




pahunkboy -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:29:52 AM)

^ re-read his post.  You miss the point.  




Owner59 -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:32:36 AM)

There are far far more things in common and that we all share with every person on the earth,then what devides us.Culture,religion,color,sexuality,customs and languages are just a percentage of a percentage compared to the thousands of things all humans share.

We must not focus on what devides people or seek to exploit those differences.This us against "them" mentality is a race to the bottom.




ArizonaBossMan -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:32:56 AM)

good gravy... to quote, "If America would have been able to show the world that it would combat hatred with rationality and justice, I'm sure that most of the whole world would have watched in admiration and pride... but now... I just feel rather sick to my stomach, because this golden opportunity was missed, and in the end... "

You have a presidente dear leader who went all over the world apologizing for America. He does ONE good thing. ONE smart thing. For that I am thankful. But y'all know he will start apologizing again. It's in the lefts DNA.




Owner59 -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:39:06 AM)

He also saved GM from collapse and they are now turning a profit.Chrysler just announced turning a profit for the 1st time since you cons fucked American`s economy up.

There`s two more smart good things President Obama did.


And he can take ALL the credit b/c you cons voted against everything President Obama did to clean up your money mess.


That`s going to be qiute a bit to answer to in November.




sunshinemiss -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:40:54 AM)

Hello Ish -
While I understand your POV (probably even agree with it), the part that is missing is human nature. It is human nature to see the world through "us" versus "them" goggles. People are not honorable, people as a group are not the wonderful beings we hope they will be. People are passionate, irrational, and complex. Mob mentality / cultural pressure / group dynamics are hugely powerful.

I'm sure there's more, but I"m not awake enough to say. Perhaps I'll get back to you tomorrow morning.

best,
sunshine





pahunkboy -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:43:51 AM)

Some people here would kill Bush the same way.....    and I dont mean non-Americans...




Owner59 -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:50:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: sunshinemiss

Hello Ish -
While I understand your POV (probably even agree with it), the part that is missing is human nature. It is human nature to see the world through "us" versus "them" goggles. People are not honorable, people as a group are not the wonderful beings we hope they will be. People are passionate, irrational, and complex. Mob mentality / cultural pressure / group dynamics are hugely powerful.

I'm sure there's more, but I"m not awake enough to say. Perhaps I'll get back to you tomorrow morning.

best,
sunshine




That`s very insightful and unfortunately at times, very true.

With that said,I think we can move in the other direction.

The world-wide net can also us help work toward understanding and toward empathy.







Mezrem -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 7:54:36 AM)

It was not a Muslim vs Christian issue in my view. It was us putting down an animal that killed thousands of us in helping master mind that attack. It was sad innocent people died. The blood of those people though is on his hands, not ours. He knew we were hunting him and kept them close to him anyway. As was stated above he could have surrendered. I for one am glad he did not. 




juliaoceania -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:01:17 AM)

In my ideal world we would have arrested the man and made him stand trial. That was never going to happen, but in my ideal world that is what would have happened.

I think many choose to forget OBL was a United States creation. He would probably have had some interesting things to say, and all that truth died with him. There was no way they were taking him alive. He could have been a Goldstein creation for all we know. Nonetheless, I have no doubt he planned 9/11.... I am just not sure who he was working for.




Aylee -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:25:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr

I've been reading the Osama topics going on, and I'm struck by how many Americans are celebrating Osama being shot without trial.
In particular, I'm amazed at how, whenever somebody questions the legality, the fairness, the morality of the assassination, the overwhelming reply is: "he did it first!"



Ishtarr,

The purpose of a trial is to determine innocence or guilt. In this case their was no question about his guilt.

So, yes, the execution was fair and moral.




juliaoceania -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:31:38 AM)

quote:

The purpose of a trial is to determine innocence or guilt. In this case their was no question about his guilt.


The purpose of a trial is to establish facts surrounding guilt or innocence. Even if you plea "guilty", you are allowed to make statements of fact surrounding that plea.

Many people have questions surrounding OBL's role in these attacks, unfortunately, those questions will be conveniently unanswered.




Charnegui -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:32:49 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ishtarr
Prior to that... all the way back to the Middle Ages, and the begin of the Islam.
Hell, even more prior than that, considering the fact that there was documented aggression between Bedouins and Christians before the Islam even existed.


*sarcasm on*
Didn't it start with "Kaïn killing his brother?"
*sarcasm of*

But you've made a good point there.
I won't get lost in the discussion by the way.





DomKen -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:39:49 AM)

FR

The only moral thing is to put down a rapid dog. That is what we did here.




mnottertail -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:41:12 AM)

Seems like he was a little slow on the uptake, or we wouldn't a been able to stick him. 




Aylee -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:48:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

The purpose of a trial is to determine innocence or guilt. In this case their was no question about his guilt.


The purpose of a trial is to establish facts surrounding guilt or innocence. Even if you plea "guilty", you are allowed to make statements of fact surrounding that plea.

Many people have questions surrounding OBL's role in these attacks, unfortunately, those questions will be conveniently unanswered.


Islam allows lying to unbelievers. Without interrogation using truth drugs how could we have gotten the true answers.

So, what, were you wanting him to blame Bush for the Twin Tower attacks? Is that what you were hoping for? Would you consider that a mitigating circumstance?

Do you think that a jury would have come back with a verdict of negligent homicide 3000 times?

This is war time. There are things that will never be answered. And as long as the enemy is dead, it does not really matter.




SilverMark -> RE: A "Fast Reply" to all the Osama topics out there. (5/4/2011 8:58:33 AM)

Oh yes please, let's bring him in for trial. Let's make a larger martyr of him to the Islamics who wish us ill. Let's creat a larger than life "innocent" being persecuted by the Big Bad Americans.

Taking the high road in issues is easy if you never have to make the decisions, if you are always treated with the same kind of morallity and decency that you speak of.

I disagree with our involvment in Iraq, not fond of Afghanistan, hated Viet Nam and what it did to our country, never much understoof our involvment in Korea although I have managed to learn

to understand what lead us there as well as the others. None of our involvments are easily understood but, this one time we took out a man who had sworn to bring down our economy and

dispised our way of life. The cost and effect of what took place on 9/11 was so much more than the 2 buildings and all of the innocent victims. Our costs involved in security for our own country,

our involvment in finding and bring all these people to justice the cost of 1 really badly directed war, and one that when we finish we will be no better off from. So take the high road, you have

nothing to lose, you can point your finger at the American Government and say what you wish, it's easy and gone on for a few hundred years. As for most of us that live here, that were raised

here and love our way of life, we can handle it. The next time that another Haiti arises, anotherTsunami, another earth quake in some remote forsaken burg we'll still help those like you.

It's what we do, we are AMERICANS! Enjoy your high road, it has as many pot holes as the road we travel, don't fall into one.




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