quote:

ORIGINAL: DarkSteven

Well, duh.  She was married to Ted Turner for years.  He didn't grow a massive company from nothing by being a sensitive, tender guy.

quote:

She married Ted Turner, hello?

_____________________________

quote:

ORIGINAL: NiceGuyNihilist
I took off yesterday before I got around to making the main point I wanted to make, which is that if Jane Fonda's alpha-male ex had been the sort of sensitive, empathic man she said the world needs more of in this speech, he likely wouldn't have been fucking her. How often do feminists choose men who'd wear "this is what a feminist looks like" T-shirts as lovers? It'd be interesting to know.

I don't see a contradiction in an alpha woman submitting only to an alpha man. Makes perfect evolutionary sense. The best pair up with the best, the rest pair up with whom they can--basic selfish-gene logic. But JF seems to want a world in which female submission to high-testosterone males is not the general rule--and that will never happen, barring genetic engineering. (And we all know only men can be engineers.)

quote:

True, Fonda conforms to the stereotype of feminists who are attracted to a certain kind of manly man despite the principles they subscribe to where men are often expected to adopt some of the more traditionally female traits, familial roles etc. Empathy/sensitivity and being a dynamic (ruthless?) go-getter aren't necessarily exclusive but are as close as.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

True, Fonda conforms to the stereotype of feminists who are attracted to a certain kind of manly man despite the principles they subscribe to where men are often expected to adopt some of the more traditionally female traits, familial roles etc. Empathy/sensitivity and being a dynamic (ruthless?) go-getter aren't necessarily exclusive but are as close as.

Question: do you think that feminism looks down on women who like alpha males? If you think this you would be wrong.... feminists support the CHOICE to have whatever sort of life a woman will find meaningful, whether that is as a wife and nonworking mother, or a high powered career without either husband or children..

quote:

I think the answer is both yes and no. Some feminists do but others of a more dogmatic variety don't. Feminism tended to advocate a straight down the middle verson of equality. A prominent feminist in my neck of the woods who faught for womens rights for decades said some months back that women who stayed in the home long term were selling out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I think the answer is both yes and no. Some feminists do but others of a more dogmatic variety don't. Feminism tended to advocate a straight down the middle verson of equality. A prominent feminist in my neck of the woods who faught for womens rights for decades said some months back that women who stayed in the home long term were selling out.

You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement...

I think that Jane Fonda would cheer the options that women have, and since we are talking about Jane Fonda here, and not the little old lady in your neck of the woods, it seems more pertinent to the topic at hand. I am someone that has actually bought books authored by the person in question, and I actually met one of her ex husbands who was an alpha male sorta guy with peacenik profeminist tendencies...

I think you have stereotyped both Jane Fonda, and her alpha male consorts, unfairly

quote:

Yes but what is normally described as the second wave of feminism (from the late 60's onwards) is still to the fore although arguably feminism is less dogmatic today. A number of high profile feminists are still surprisingly extreme, not a million miles away from the "all men are rapists" clique. You brought up the character of feminism which is why I mentioned the sentiments of one famous feminist who BTW is probably younger than Fonda and more politically active today. I'm not an expert on Fonda as I never particularly liked her movies or her politics but its clear men like Ted Turner are tough as nails businessmen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

Yes but what is normally described as the second wave of feminism (from the late 60's onwards) is still to the fore although arguably feminism is less dogmatic today. A number of high profile feminists are still surprisingly extreme, not a million miles away from the "all men are rapists" clique. You brought up the character of feminism which is why I mentioned the sentiments of one famous feminist who BTW is probably younger than Fonda and more politically active today. I'm not an expert on Fonda as I never particularly liked her movies or her politics but its clear men like Ted Turner are tough as nails businessmen.

Well since this thread is about Fonda, I would think that you would find her views on feminism the only ones that mattered, instead of some obscure lesbian feminists that were in vogue in the late 1960s/early 1970s...


I am a fan of Fonda's politics, and her movies were always tolerable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement...

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse
Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic?

I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear.

The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leadership527

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
You do understand that feminism has gone through waves... I believe we are in the midst of 4th wave feminism, which isn't your grandma's feminist movement...

Yup, I do understand that... although "4th wave" is highly speculative at this point. Most would say "3rd wave" for the current round of feminists. My general understanding was that 2nd wave (Carol's and mine) was about choice. 3rd wave fractured into a bajillion little splinters. Only some of those are about choice now. Many seem to be very focused on creating and/or waging a war between the genders. I cringe when I hear a woman use the word "patriarchy" in a sentence.

Even in 2nd wave, this whole "choice" thing wasn't very clear. My 2nd wife had great stories about getting dirty looks and being called a "lipstick feminist" because of the way she dressed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply....

Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic?

I am no expert. I live my life, admittedly in the shadow of many women that worked very hard for me to have those rights, doing my thing my way. I expect, and get, fair treatment. I am paid well for what I do. I do not suffer in any notable way for being a woman. I don't run around waving any flags, I just live.

I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear.

On end of the spectrum you have the chest thumping, natural order "I am man, all womankind should bow before my superior dickness!". On the other end you have the hardcore, man hating, lesbian, "All sex with men is eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiilllllllllll and wrong!".

The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

quote:

I welcome women having the same freedoms and rights as men. However a lot of feminist ideology appears to start from a position of hatred or at least a strong dislike of men and masculinity. If such ideology is influencing policy then it can be harmful not only to men but women as well. No woman or indeed man needs to be an expert to know that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LaTigresse

Using fast reply....

Am I the ONLY woman that finds it ridiculously humorous that, every single time a thread is created with feminism as a topic or branch off topic........there are so bloody many men that like to think they are experts on the topic?

quote:


I am no expert. I live my life, admittedly in the shadow of many women that worked very hard for me to have those rights, doing my thing my way. I expect, and get, fair treatment. I am paid well for what I do. I do not suffer in any notable way for being a woman. I don't run around waving any flags, I just live.

I simply find it hysterical that men, obviously men that have a bone to pick with what they perceive as feminist concepts, are constantly postulizing about it as though it is dramatically ruining everything they hold near and dear.

quote:


On end of the spectrum you have the chest thumping, natural order "I am man, all womankind should bow before my superior dickness!". On the other end you have the hardcore, man hating, lesbian, "All sex with men is eeeeeeeeeevvvvviiiiiiilllllllllll and wrong!".

The smart people realize that most of us fall somewhere in the middle.

quote:

There are a lot of women who fancy themselves as experts on "patriarchy," so it's kind of the same thing.

quote:

And I'm by no means an expert in feminism. When someone mentions "third wave" or "fourth wave," I have to admit that I'm clueless as to the differences. I can only really compare decades, knowing how things were in the 1970s versus how they are today. All I can say is that when it comes to feminism, I can sympathize with the destitute women who are abandoned, working two jobs, and having to take care of kids. But when these "daddy's little princess" types who have never been deprived of anything their whole lives and who are more privileged and comfortable than 90% of the male population talk about being "oppressed," then I just have to roll my eyes.

In a world on the verge of total economic collapse and world war, upper class feminism almost seems quaintly irrelevant these days. I daresay that most of the female population on the planet doesn't share a lot in common with the upper class western women who have been the staunchest supporters of feminism. Reading Jane Fonda's speech, I can't help but think "This is a person who has been living in a bubble all her life."

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

There are a lot of women who fancy themselves as experts on "patriarchy," so it's kind of the same thing.

Patriarchy: is a social system in which males have the primary authority... you do not have to be a man to live in such a social system. Since we do not have a feminist social system I fail to see the analogy here.

quote:


You do realize that feminism isn't just about economic equality, but living life unafraid of violence. Domestic violence against women knows no socio-economic class. So those "princesses" that you roll your eyes at maybe victims of domestic violence, sexual assault, or molestation.