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RE: Affecting Water - 5/12/2011 1:43:27 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

What exactly am I making up? Here is what your link responded to....

I want you to focus very carefully on my post. Ready?

Okay. Now I want you to observe the "~ FR ~" at the top. See it?

Good. Now ask Willbeurbrain what it means.

K.



now that youve apparently found teachmeaboutcommunication try not to be so fast. She'll like it better.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Affecting Water - 5/12/2011 1:49:35 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

now that youve apparently found teachmeaboutcommunication try not to be so fast

Ha! That appears to go both ways...

Smart-assery aside, I hadn't even read as far as your post when I put that link up (Fast Reply just tacks things on wherever). But it's clear to me now why you thought what you did, and also why I thought your response was off the wall. So let's call it a draw. Looks like we both jumped to conclusions.

K.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Affecting Water - 5/12/2011 1:57:02 PM   
ricken


Posts: 261
Joined: 1/11/2010
Status: offline 		I used to be a fan and I believed (foolishly) that we can manifest changes around us with positive thoughts, emotions and doing well for ourself and others. I no longer believe any crap like that. What happens, happens it's as simple as that. If someone looks hard enough they can find proof to any crazy idea that comes along, like emotions and prayer affecting water....IT'S WATER!!!

The most intersting thing to me about this, is someplace, somehow this guy has found some suckers to pay him to do this study....

I think I'll do a study on the affects of my emotions on frozen water....if I'm angry will it melt faster than if I think good thoughts....I just got to get financial backers....

My hats off to this guy for sure

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Affecting Water - 5/12/2011 2:11:46 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ricken

I used to be a fan and I believed (foolishly) that we can manifest changes around us with positive thoughts, emotions and doing well for ourself and others. I no longer believe any crap like that. What happens, happens it's as simple as that. If someone looks hard enough they can find proof to any crazy idea that comes along, like emotions and prayer affecting water....IT'S WATER!!!

The most intersting thing to me about this, is someplace, somehow this guy has found some suckers to pay him to do this study....

I think I'll do a study on the affects of my emotions on frozen water....if I'm angry will it melt faster than if I think good thoughts....I just got to get financial backers....

My hats off to this guy for sure

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeTTCeqBwjc&feature=related
This guy is on his way already.

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Proof positive, I'm sure of it.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

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(in reply to ricken)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Affecting Water - 5/12/2011 2:44:00 PM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Maybe you should. Remember "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Actually, most of the stuff I've seen on the effects of intention on water was done with plants. But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

K.

(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Affecting Water - 5/12/2011 2:51:20 PM   
Icarys


Posts: 5757
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: Icarys

Hey, I have an idea! Maybe...Maybe that's why they tell you to talk to your plants! They're made up of water too! Say nice things, play Vivaldi (Any will do cause It's all full of beauty) and just give a plant a hug!

Maybe you should. Remember "The Secret Life of Plants"?

Actually, most of the stuff I've seen on the effects of intention on water was done with plants. But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

K.

All jokes aside, I'll take a look at that.


_____________________________

submission - the feeling of patient, submissive humbleness - the state of being submissive or compliant; meekness.

Alaska Bound-The Official Countdown Has Started!
http://tinyurl.com/872mcu3
http://alturl.com/mog7m

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 10:35:58 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Glad to see this thread back on track.

quote:

I used to be a fan and I believed (foolishly) that we can manifest changes around us with positive thoughts, emotions and doing well for ourself and others. I no longer believe any crap like that. What happens, happens it's as simple as that. If someone looks hard enough they can find proof to any crazy idea that comes along, like emotions and prayer affecting water....IT'S WATER!!!


This is the kind of thinking that parents give their children for example, to diminish things down to a sort of numb nothingness. Like "Why are you crying that your dog died, it is a DOG!" They even kind of yell why they say this. It pretty much boils down to a deep seated hatred and fear of emotion. As though emotions could KILL someone. I find it exceedingly Neanderthalic, mean, dangerous and ultimately says more about the person trying to shut down and control the situation than anything else. In turn everyone reaps the unhappy benefits of hunting down, shutting down emotions, like cancer, heart attacks, even male pattern baldness is a symptom of attempting to think away feelings rather than accepting them for what they are and feeling them instead. As a side note, positive thinking on its own does not work because of this. Bashing out feelings because they are not "positive" is not going to work either.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to Icarys)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 10:44:59 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata
But as it happens, an earlier study on water crystals got significant results too.

Same lead author and functionally the same experiment as the previous paper you linked. In this case the crystals chosen for examination were chosen by one of the authors who was not blind as to which samples of water as the cource for each crystals. That injected bias into the experiment.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 11:22:17 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In this case the crystals chosen for examination were chosen by one of the authors who was not blind as to which samples of water as the cource for each crystals.

Do you just make this shit up? The crystals were photographed for analysis without knowledge of which experimental condition the sample represented, and the subsequent aestheic ratings were independent and blind.

they [M.E. and T.K.] were not told the conditions of the four bottles... volunteers were recruited over the Internet to blindly and independently rate each crystal... The order in which each image was presented to each judge (via a Web page) was independently randomized... and the condition (treated vs control) from which each crystal was formed was not indicated

K.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 11:31:19 AM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In this case the crystals chosen for examination were chosen by one of the authors who was not blind as to which samples of water as the cource for each crystals.

Do you just make this shit up? The crystals were photographed for analysis without knowledge of which experimental condition the sample represented, and the subsequent aestheic ratings were independent and blind.

they [M.E. and T.K.] were not told the conditions of the four bottles... volunteers were recruited over the Internet to blindly and independently rate each crystal... The order in which each image was presented to each judge (via a Web page) was independently randomized... and the condition (treated vs control) from which each crystal was formed was not indicated

K.



Sounds to me like, contrary to your prior protest, you are buying this crap! Do you really think that someone trying to sell books and lectures on a bullshit idea wouldnt lie about the process? INDEPENDENT DOUBLE BLIND STUDY WITH STATISTICALLY SIGNIFICANT RESULTS, not spin by the participants, please.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 11:49:09 AM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Sounds to me like, contrary to your prior protest, you are buying this crap!

Oh shit, did I leave my mind open again? Fuck, fuck, fuck, I'm sorry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Do you really think that someone trying to sell books and lectures on a bullshit idea wouldnt lie about the process?

I know they're lying. I fucked up. I don't know what happened to me.

K.

(in reply to willbeurdaddy)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 2:30:06 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

In this case the crystals chosen for examination were chosen by one of the authors who was not blind as to which samples of water as the cource for each crystals.

Do you just make this shit up? The crystals were photographed for analysis without knowledge of which experimental condition the sample represented, and the subsequent aestheic ratings were independent and blind.

they [M.E. and T.K.] were not told the conditions of the four bottles... volunteers were recruited over the Internet to blindly and independently rate each crystal... The order in which each image was presented to each judge (via a Web page) was independently randomized... and the condition (treated vs control) from which each crystal was formed was not indicated

K.

Did you not read the whole study.
quote:

The first author (D.R.) randomly assigned
the bottles with labels A throughD(using a tossed die), and, with
G.H., he selected two of those bottles to be the “treated” samples
(randomly selected as A and B); the remaining two bottles were
set aside as controls (C and D).


quote:

The day after the conference, D.R. and G.H. retrieved all four
bottles and wrapped them in identical sheets of aluminum foil
and bubble wrap, placed each bottle in a separate box labeled A
through D as appropriate, and mailed the four boxes to M.E.’s
laboratory.

Fairly obvious that the tech knew A and B were the test and C and D were controls. For a real double blind the 4 samples should have been randomized so there was no way for any investigator to know which was which. That data should have been held by an uninvolved person with no contact with the authors.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 3:43:45 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Fairly obvious that the tech knew A and B were the test and C and D were controls.

What tech would this be?

The bottles were sent to M.E. and T.K. without either of them knowing or being told which ones were the controls.

K.



< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/14/2011 3:44:25 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 3:48:31 PM   
willbeurdaddy


Posts: 11894
Joined: 4/8/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Sounds to me like, contrary to your prior protest, you are buying this crap!

Oh shit, did I leave my mind open again? Fuck, fuck, fuck, I'm sorry.

quote:

ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy

Do you really think that someone trying to sell books and lectures on a bullshit idea wouldnt lie about the process?

I know they're lying. I fucked up. I don't know what happened to me.

K.



Open to what? There has been nothing here that could possibly sway someone from disbelief or neutrality toward belief. You bought it from the beginning.

_____________________________

Hear the lark
and harken
to the barking of the dogfox,
gone to ground.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 3:51:35 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Fairly obvious that the tech knew A and B were the test and C and D were controls.

What tech would this be?

The bottles were sent to M.E. and T.K. without either of them knowing or being told which ones were the controls.

The tech who froze the samples and photographed the crystals. The one who produced 24 pics from the test samples but only 16 from the controls.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 7:05:42 PM   
Kirata


Posts: 15477
Joined: 2/11/2006
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The tech who froze the samples and photographed the crystals.

You're mistaken, Ken. The tech (Takashige Kizu) froze 50 samples [0.5ml] from each of the four bottles without knowing which bottles were treated and which were controls, and all of the crystals that formed were photographed (for a total of 40 out of the 200 samples). Emoto and Kizu didn't even know that the controls existed until they learned they would be receiving four bottles instead of the expected two, and they were not told which bottles were which.

K.


< Message edited by Kirata -- 5/14/2011 7:10:15 PM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 7:33:01 PM   
juliaoceania


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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

As though emotions could KILL someone.


Actually emotions do kill people every day, and unfortunately our unwillingness to deal with them only exacerbates the situation.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Affecting Water - 5/14/2011 7:56:58 PM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		No emotions themselves do not kill people, denied emotions do, emotions judged to be unacceptable do.

If there is acceptance for the feelings they will not act out in an unsafe way. People gap out and do horrid things when they hold their emotions in and down and the straw that breaks the camels back happens and folks end up doing untold amounts of damage to themselves and each other. It is not the emotion that is to blame but all the denial in there warping things.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:12:27 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The tech who froze the samples and photographed the crystals.

You're mistaken, Ken. The tech (Takashige Kizu) froze 50 samples [0.5ml] from each of the four bottles without knowing which bottles were treated and which were controls, and all of the crystals that formed were photographed (for a total of 40 out of the 200 samples). Emoto and Kizu didn't even know that the controls existed until they learned they would be receiving four bottles instead of the expected two, and they were not told which bottles were which.

K.


Read the study. The bottles were labeled sequentially. That is experiment ruining bias. For a real double blind study the labeling should have been random and certainly not 4 letters in sequence. The number of crystals photographed is telling as the difference between 24 and 16 is statistically huge. Quite simply the tech may have chosen more crystals in the "treated" samples or only less visually pleasing crystals from the controls.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:22:45 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream

No emotions themselves do not kill people, denied emotions do, emotions judged to be unacceptable do.

If there is acceptance for the feelings they will not act out in an unsafe way. People gap out and do horrid things when they hold their emotions in and down and the straw that breaks the camels back happens and folks end up doing untold amounts of damage to themselves and each other. It is not the emotion that is to blame but all the denial in there warping things.


Actually, stress is an emotion... Stress kills. Stress is worsened by denied emotions, but some of us are just more prone to anxiety, even if we accept it. It takes work to control it.... like meditation, etc.

I would say run-away emotions are just as dangerous as suppressed ones.


_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to heartcream)
Profile   Post #: 60
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