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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:25:28 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Here is the thing, I do not think heartcream was intending to make this a scientific debate. I believe she wanted to talk about the power of intention. I do not understand why people who do not like such discussions want to come in and crap all over the place and derail what some of us believe is a valid topic.

This is the religion and politics forum.... not the "let me shit all over your beliefs with science" forum

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:32:58 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

Here is the thing, I do not think heartcream was intending to make this a scientific debate. I believe she wanted to talk about the power of intention. I do not understand why people who do not like such discussions want to come in and crap all over the place and derail what some of us believe is a valid topic.

This is the religion and politics forum.... not the "let me shit all over your beliefs with science" forum

Because this is a fraud designed to make the people behind it money, like all such claims. Debunking this crap will hopefully make people less gullible and prevent them from falling prey to other predators in the future.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 62
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:34:47 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		Who is making money because of this thread?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:47:44 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		If unchallenged it would have served as an advertisment for Emoto's products.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 7:56:08 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		OOohhhh nooooo, someone might be stupid enough to buy his products if it wasn't for you posting rational scientific stuff to stop 'em! I do not think they will care what you post if they want to spend their money that way. If I wanted to buy something, I do not think some guy telling me it was stupid or unscientific would stop me.

People buy herbal supplements all of the time that are nothing but snake oil, do you spend a lot of your time debunking them too? Or just when it comes to something that may have spiritual beliefs attached to it?

If I were to read Emoto literally, I would know I could pray over my own water and change it... why would I need to buy it from him?

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 8:34:08 AM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

OOohhhh nooooo, someone might be stupid enough to buy his products if it wasn't for you posting rational scientific stuff to stop 'em! I do not think they will care what you post if they want to spend their money that way. If I wanted to buy something, I do not think some guy telling me it was stupid or unscientific would stop me.

People buy herbal supplements all of the time that are nothing but snake oil, do you spend a lot of your time debunking them too? Or just when it comes to something that may have spiritual beliefs attached to it?

If I were to read Emoto literally, I would know I could pray over my own water and change it... why would I need to buy it from him?

If you post woo around here I will usually debunk it. That includes homepathy. herbs, etc.

I find your demand that people be able to post nonsense unchallenged ridiculous.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 8:38:02 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I find your insistence that any sort of spiritual feeling needs debunking a bit much. You post on every thread dealing with spirituality as a way of deriding it.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy many posts from you, even the ones I disagree with, but it just seems you have an issue with spirituality.

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:15:03 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
Joined: 5/9/2007
From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		In this big ol world most of us deal with so much stress that really does wear our adrenal glands down to the ground. It is sad when people, including myself, judge emotions so harshly. Why not blame the mind? The mind is a far bigger culprit. You cannot meditate stress away, you can so-called "manage it" but it is not really ever getting to the root of the issue this way. Meditation only goes so far if you look to history you will see this is so. If meditation would heal us we would have been there done that a trillion years ago. Meditation is a fantastic tool to help us cope but it is not the way to ultimately heal ourselves.

Free expression of the emotions does not kill with acceptance for emotions in place. If I have "run-away" emotions in a safe place like my car or home where I am safe from some other person coming in and calling me crazy, let us say, and medicating me because I have deep, unpleasant and intense emotions that I am simply feeling, I will be fine, fine, fine. There is no need to hurt ourselves or anyone else in order to allow heavily judged and heavy emotions to move. Allowing them free expression in a safe place will inform on the other side of them. It is not something the mind can take care of as much as it may like to think it can. The mind would be better off to allow these feelings to safely express and learn from what they have to teach because feelings do teach.

As a world we have not allowed for the free reign of emotion because we are terrified of our emotions, we judge them, we hate them and we kill them . We go as far as to think they will kill us and that is why we all medicate ourselves, distract ourselves, numb ourselves and all sorts of things rather than feel them.

Honestly the mind is a huge detriment to healing feelings and we need to look at the whole entire picture and not blame emotions for the shite going on on the daily.

One might feel safe in one's mind telling oneself these sorts of things but in the end if the deep seated feelings that are held deeply in place by just these sorts of judgments is not released we remain fat and all the rest of it, undercurrently having these "bad" emotions run our very lives.

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(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:21:14 AM   
DomKen


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From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

I find your insistence that any sort of spiritual feeling needs debunking a bit much. You post on every thread dealing with spirituality as a way of deriding it.

Do not get me wrong, I enjoy many posts from you, even the ones I disagree with, but it just seems you have an issue with spirituality.

I do have an issue with spirituality. It is foolishness and fear in the face of reality. It wastes time and effort that could be better spent on things that actually matter.

I will point out that this thread is about a guy claiming he has sound science that prayer can affect water. It is therefore entirely appoproate to respond by questioning and examining the science.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:22:54 AM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Because this is a fraud designed to make the people behind it money, like all such claims. Debunking this crap will hopefully make people less gullible and prevent them from falling prey to other predators in the future.


Tooooooo funny! I bought a magic marker and wrote "LOVE" on my water bottle and now I am in the poor house.

As I stated earlier I am aligned with Emoto, I dont need a white coat to give a seal of approval in order to make up my own mind about things, it is not an angle that does much for me.

When science does "prove" cool shit I like it because it puts a lovely sock in the mouth of narrow minded self righteous damaging mindsets like this one. Some times the hardest thing is to get this brand of hardheaded denseness out of the way to give some other points of view a chance to see the light of day.

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:30:36 AM   
heartcream


Posts: 3044
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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen


I do have an issue with spirituality. It is foolishness and fear in the face of reality. It wastes time and effort that could be better spent on things that actually matter.

I will point out that this thread is about a guy claiming he has sound science that prayer can affect water. It is therefore entirely appropriate to respond by questioning and examining the science.

I will point out that this thread is about a guy claiming he has sound science that prayer can affect water. It is therefore entirely appoproate to respond by questioning and examining the science.



I fixed your spelling : ) I had to if I was going to bold it. It is always important to question and examine. Putting all your faith in science is a bit sad. Sometimes a body needs to try and sort things out their own self. Then if science "proves" it you can see how smaht you is. If science disproves it you can make further decisions from there. Science has not disproved Emoto's work at this point so...? Emoto made no claims about "science". He did studies, he posted his results.

"Foolishness and a fear in the face of reality"? Has science given you conclusive results as to what the face of reality is? What does actually matter? You know what actually matters, please do share!

< Message edited by heartcream -- 5/15/2011 10:33:20 AM >

_____________________________

"Exaggerate the essential, leave the obvious vague." Vincent Van Gogh

I'd Rather Be With You

Every single line means something.
Jean-Michel Basquiat



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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:50:26 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
In turn everyone reaps the unhappy benefits of hunting down, shutting down emotions, like cancer, heart attacks, even male pattern baldness is a symptom of attempting to think away feelings rather than accepting them for what they are and feeling them instead. As a side note, positive thinking on its own does not work because of this. Bashing out feelings because they are not "positive" is not going to work either.


I think you can link increasing stress levels with not dealing with your feelings effectively and in turn occurrences such as heart attacks and baldness can be linked with high stress levels. However it is a bit of a stretch to state not dealing with emotions leads to cancer. Are you really going to state not dealing with emotions is a contributory factor in getting cancer.

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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:53:25 AM   
willbeurdaddy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FullCircle

quote:

ORIGINAL: heartcream
In turn everyone reaps the unhappy benefits of hunting down, shutting down emotions, like cancer, heart attacks, even male pattern baldness is a symptom of attempting to think away feelings rather than accepting them for what they are and feeling them instead. As a side note, positive thinking on its own does not work because of this. Bashing out feelings because they are not "positive" is not going to work either.


I think you can link increasing stress levels with not dealing with your feelings effectively and in turn occurrences such as heart attacks and baldness can be linked with high stress levels. However it is a bit of a stretch to state not dealing with emotions leads to cancer. Are you really going to state not dealing with emotions is a contributory factor in getting cancer.


Actually there is good reason to believe that emotional health is critically linked to the immune system and contributes to developing and/or fighting disease including cancer.

That is a physical process within one's own body, though. That is a totally different thing from being able to influence a totally separate substance without physical interaction.

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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:54:08 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline 		I think it can contribute to cancer, but genetic and environmental factors are a huge component as well

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 10:59:56 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
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quote:

I do have an issue with spirituality. It is foolishness and fear in the face of reality. It wastes time and effort that could be better spent on things that actually matter.


So, my meditating, feeling connected to something larger than myself, the way I treat myself and others as a result of finding peace in such things is a waste of time?
The Relaxation Response


I had an atheist psychologist recommend that to me when I was fighting depression from a lack of spirituality. It is scientific proof of the power of prayer and meditation as a way to lower blood pressure... it was written by a cardiologist.

Another thing, the placebo effect is proof that it is what we believe that will heal us that often is enough to do the trick. All healing comes from within, doctors can only hope to aid that process.

So, you go on deriding spiritual belief and practice.... I will go on meditating, trying to feel connected to something larger than myself. My blood pressure is very low (112/65), so I think I will keep on keeping on my own path

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

(in reply to DomKen)
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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 11:02:35 AM   
FullCircle


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Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		I think genetic predisposition and contact with carcinogens are the biggest component to the degree that other factors such as emotional wellbeing don't really have much influence. Emotional wellbeing is also subjective so I don't know how it would be measured and thus I don't know how it would be studied to give an end result that highlights it as a contributing factor. Is the average person with cancer going to be emotionally sound?

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 5/15/2011 11:05:01 AM >

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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 11:08:32 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

I do have an issue with spirituality. It is foolishness and fear in the face of reality. It wastes time and effort that could be better spent on things that actually matter.


So, my meditating, feeling connected to something larger than myself, the way I treat myself and others as a result of finding peace in such things is a waste of time?
The Relaxation Response


I had an atheist psychologist recommend that to me when I was fighting depression from a lack of spirituality. It is scientific proof of the power of prayer and meditation as a way to lower blood pressure... it was written by a cardiologist.

Another thing, the placebo effect is proof that it is what we believe that will heal us that often is enough to do the trick. All healing comes from within, doctors can only hope to aid that process.

So, you go on deriding spiritual belief and practice.... I will go on meditating, trying to feel connected to something larger than myself. My blood pressure is very low (112/65), so I think I will keep on keeping on my own path

Spirituality is a very different thing than sitting still and relaxing.

The placebo effect says that sometimes a person perceives they are feeling better when they believe they should feel better. Placebo effect has never been shown to actually heal disease or injury.

(in reply to juliaoceania)
Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 11:47:37 AM   
juliaoceania


Posts: 21383
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From: Somewhere Over the Rainbow
Status: offline
quote:

Spirituality is a very different thing than sitting still and relaxing.

The placebo effect says that sometimes a person perceives they are feeling better when they believe they should feel better. Placebo effect has never been shown to actually heal disease or injury.


So you are saying that my meditation as a spiritual experience has no value and is a waste of time. You have not proven this to be so. You have not shown that it is a waste of time to feel connected to something larger than yourself through prayer.... even when I showed that medical doctors have connected it with lowering blood pressure.


As far as the placebo effect not curing illness.... show me where real healing comes from... the body heals itself. No doctor can heal you, healing is a physical mechanism which can be aided by one's belief they will get better. They are finding that many things improve immunity, such as what we hear, what we see and what we feel.... our senses aid in the ability of the body to heal itself.


Now you can poo poo that all you want, but there have been multiple studies showing it to be true

_____________________________

Once you label me, you negate me ~ Soren Kierkegaard

Reality has a well known Liberal Bias ~ Stephen Colbert

Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people. Eleanor Roosevelt

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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 11:51:16 AM   
Kirata


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From: USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The bottles were labeled sequentially. That is experiment ruining bias. For a real double blind study the labeling should have been random and certainly not 4 letters in sequence.

This is just bullshit. If you don't know which bottle is which, then you don't know which bottle is which. It doesn't matter whether they're labelled "A" through "D" or "Mickey," "Donald," "Bugs," and "Pluto." Additionally, the labeling was random and the order that resulted is no more or less likely than any other order.

The first author (D.R.) randomly assigned the bottles with labels A throughD(using a tossed die), and, with G.H., he selected two of those bottles to be the “treated” samples (randomly selected as A and B); the remaining two bottles were set aside as controls (C and D).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The number of crystals photographed is telling as the difference between 24 and 16 is statistically huge. Quite simply the tech may have chosen more crystals in the "treated" samples or only less visually pleasing crystals from the controls.

What's "telling" is your willingness to just make shit up. The tech DID NOT KNOW which were the treated samples, and ALL the crystals that formed were photographed. If anything, the fact that more crystals formed under the treatment condition appears to be a treatment effect.

K.

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RE: Affecting Water - 5/15/2011 12:03:13 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kirata


quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The bottles were labeled sequentially. That is experiment ruining bias. For a real double blind study the labeling should have been random and certainly not 4 letters in sequence.

This is just bullshit. If you don't know which bottle is which, then you don't know which bottle is which. It doesn't matter whether they're labelled "A" through "D" or "Mickey," "Donald," "Bugs," and "Pluto." Additionally, the labeling was random and the order that resulted is no more or less likely than any other order.

The first author (D.R.) randomly assigned the bottles with labels A throughD(using a tossed die), and, with G.H., he selected two of those bottles to be the “treated” samples (randomly selected as A and B); the remaining two bottles were set aside as controls (C and D).

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

The number of crystals photographed is telling as the difference between 24 and 16 is statistically huge. Quite simply the tech may have chosen more crystals in the "treated" samples or only less visually pleasing crystals from the controls.

What's "telling" is your willingness to just make shit up. The tech DID NOT KNOW which were the treated samples, and ALL the crystals that formed were photographed. If anything, the fact that more crystals formed under the treatment condition appears to be a treatment effect.

K.

If you think only 40 water crystals formed from 50 samples of water being frozen you have too large a lack of knowledge for me to continue trying to discuss this with you.

(in reply to Kirata)
Profile   Post #: 80
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