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RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 7:37:27 PM

Real0ne

Posts: 21189
Joined: 10/25/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kdsub

It is easier for a 5 year old to pickup and pull the trigger on a handgun then a shotgun or rifle.

Butch

well triggers are adjustable but the kid is more likely to get it in the face with a pistol than a rifle.

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(in reply to kdsub)

Post #: 161

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 7:46:20 PM

Aynne88

Posts: 3873
Joined: 8/29/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne88
Awareness, just so you know, I am a liberal. I despise the NRA, and honeslty I have next to nothing in common with the typical "pro gun" right wing republican. So this generalizing bullshit is well...bullshit. I own guns because I can, because I live in a really nice house, I drive nice vehicles, I don't trust people, I know how to use guns, I don't know, pick one, who really cares. I am *not* going to be raped, robbed or anything else with a loaded firearm within reach in every room in my house, and usually one in my bag since I have a conceal carry permit.

I don't have children, before another incorrect generalization is made.

That's kind of my point, lass. You live in fear and consequently need a gun to try and overcome that fear because the gun obsessives have turned your society into a violent one. Ultimately all that does is raise the stakes. If someone breaks into your home with intent to rape or rob you and has the reasonable expectation that you're carrying, then they will too. At this point, it simply becomes a question of whether you're surprised or not, but the outcome is probably much deadlier than in a society without such a culture of fear.

I gather that most women experience sexual assault at the hands of someone they know. If true, this tends to lower your opportunity to defend yourself with a gun, since there's a reasonable chance your guard will be down.

The trouble is, putting the genie back in the bottle would be difficult. And the only realistic way it could work is to gradually make handguns more difficult to get and slowly modify social attitudes so insecure men stop seeking a weapon as a way to compensate for their feelings of inadequacy.

Lass? Well. I am tired and it was a long day. Point is this. You come to my house with any kind of dishonorable intent..done. That's it. I don't live in fear, I live in reality. I will kill an intruder. I do not have any moral qualms over that. Period. Thanks for assuming I am afraid. Not.

_____________________________

As long as people will shed the blood of innocent creatures there can be no peace, no liberty, no harmony between people. Slaughter and justice cannot dwell together.
—Isaac Bashevis Singer, writer and Nobel laureate (1902–1991)

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 162

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 8:17:21 PM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
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"How many of them were drunk or on drugs (or both) at the time?"

Quite possible, but that is no excuse. While I'm not in favor of these ridiculous DUI laws, I think it's quite reasonable to expect someone to know if they've had too much to be driving. Well I would think that applies to many tools, you know, those tools that don't require any sort of license like nailguns, chainsaws, things like that. So it is perfectly reasonable to expect people to not handle firearms when they've had too much whatever fun stuff they're doing.

In fact I just got done talking with a friend of mine and brought up the issue of a gun going off "accidentally" while cleaning it. We had a good laugh about it, because it's just so lame. See he's from down south and has been around guns since he was a little kid. He doesn't drink much but he has. He knows damn well not to play around with certain things while intoxicated. You know, guns, tractors, cars, power saws, get the idea ?

Now I'll bring up this : Every gun thread seems to turn out the same. Those who are against them will never change, and those who are for them are just as determined. We think they are brainwashed and they think we are brainwashed. Maybe we all are. But the fact is that things are different here in the US. This is our way, this is part of our culture. Of course I think "they" are wrong, and always will. The first part of this reasoning is that it is much better to have something and not need it than the opposite. Once you lose something, try to get it back.

I also firmly believe that most of the time politicians who are against guns are because they know they are the ones who deserve most to be shot dead for their crimes against the public trust. Come on, they are selling your fucking national forests and shit. Are you kidding me saying that this is OK ?

Hey, fellow gun nuts, I have a good one for ya. There was a councilman in Cleveland named Cintron. A friend of our's beat him in the election several years ago. (IIRC Cintron did eventually win his seat back) The interesting part is that his house was broken into, and some items were stolen. He was either at work or whatever, his Wife arrived home, found the place ransacked and called the police. So he cops are there and they are making a list of everything that was stolen. She remembered the gun in the drawer. She checked and, supposedly, luckily the gun had not been stolen. Wasn't so lucky when they arrested her for illegal posession of a firearm. I laughed all the way to the beer store !

Another one, our top cop Jim Simone. Well he shot someone in the line of duty so he was going to be off for a few days under investigation, standard procedure. Well now it's him sitting in the back of a police cruiser. He surrenders his service weapon of course, it goes to ballistics I imagine. But he had another gun in his sock. When he got that out and gave it to his comrade in arms (lol), they arrested him for it. (that's known as a drop piece, I suggest everyone have one)

Now get this, both of these incidents can be found in the archives of the Cleveland Plain Dealer newspaper. However there is nothing about the disposition of these cases. Why ? I know why, because there is one set of laws for "them" and one set of laws for "us". Everything was quietly swept under the rug.

How does that grab ya ? So I'll put it to those in Europe, OZ and wherever, when they took your guns away, did the politicians give up their's ? You tell me.

T^T

(in reply to joether)

Post #: 163

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 9:01:20 PM

fox469

Posts: 6
Status: offline

I find this interesting gun control is a touchy subject but I believe it's necessary for a few good reasons. I personally like to go to the source for information. Here's a few things that is why I believe guns are a necessity.

Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man. Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774_1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

THOMAS PAINE"The balance of power is the scale of peace. The same balance would be preserved were all the world not destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside ... Horrid mischief would ensue were one half the world deprived of the use of them ... the weak will become prey to the strong."Thomas Paine, Thoughts on Defensive War

GEORGE MASON"When the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually...I ask, who are the militia? They consist of now of the whole people, except a few public officers. But I cannot say who will be the militia of the future day. If that paper on the table gets no alteration, the militia of the future day may not consist of all classes, high and low, and rich and poor..."George Mason, Virginia Constitution Convention

NOAH WEBSTER"Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretence, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive."Noah Webster, An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution (Philadelphia 1787)

TENCHE COXE"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man gainst his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American...[T]he unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people."Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.

PATRICK HENRY"The great object is that every man be armed. Everyone who is able may have a gun.""Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"

This is my take on things, we can carry arms to defend ourselves from corrupted politicians who take away our other rights... it's a means to protect ourselves from the corrupt who put themselves in places of trust in gov't.

Contrary to what it says this was not in reply to a specific person... first time I used this system here.

< Message edited by fox469 -- 5/16/2011 9:03:53 PM >

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 164

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 9:30:58 PM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termyn8or
So, somebody sneaked in and typed that while you were taking a piss or something ? Sorry I had no idea.

Okay, when someone says "out of context" do you know what that means?

Go on boy, tell us what it means.

Think about it - it'll come to you.

Christ, how can anyone debate with you when your grasp of English is so incoherent?

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 165

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 9:39:13 PM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
Seriously? LoL and you call me naive. You're the naive one if you rely on the cops to both come immediately to aid *you* when some nut enters your home wishing to do you harm.

Oh, the home invasion thing which is all too common in your violent society - yeah, we really don't get that much. In fact, almost never.

quote:

As the saying goes, when *seconds* count, cops are *minutes* away. Even if the police station is around the corner, you're looking at at least a minute or two response time. Massacres have happened in less time than that.

Once again, we have a context problem. I pointed out that law enforcement has always been the primary deterrent for violent crime in Australia and New Zealand and you respond by saying law enforcement neither cares, nor can be there in time to help you. Not only does that reveal a naivety about how violent crime occurs, but it's simply not true in these societies. So I'm afraid you're going to have to accept the fact that my statement is true and you're not in a position to debate it. Violent crime did not rise with the advent of gun laws in Australia, no matter what your NRA handlers tell you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DarqueMirror
quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
And that when I walk down the main street of the capital city here at night, the last thing I'm thinking about is that someone may come up and stick a gun in my face.

Of course not. You're wondering about knives and ax handles. Just a different type of weapon. What, do we ban knives and ax handles too? The criminals will just use something else.

No. I'm not. Because our society just isn't as violent as yours. Period. We have drugs, we have criminal activity, but we don't have anywhere near as many murders and we tend not to shoot each other. Even the gangs tend to prey on each other, because preying on the public is bad for (drug) business.

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to DarqueMirror)

Post #: 166

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 9:45:17 PM

Awareness

Posts: 3918
Joined: 9/8/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Edwynn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness
Nah dude, you know that illusory sense of superiority that Americans have?

You mean that you tell us about all the time? Why do not others in the world listen to you?

Well, mostly they don't need to, they're pretty good at spotting it themselves, but frankly you wouldn't have any idea. Most of you spend time looking inward, rather than outward. Half of you have no ability to identify the superpowers on a map, let alone countries such as Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Spain, Portugal, France or Greece, so you're not exactly taking much notice of the rest of the world anyway.

quote:

But in any event the differences are all due to gun obsession and gun obsession alone then, right? The completely different history, the political corruption, etc.?

Explain to me how history and politics has turned most of the USA into a bunch of gun-crazed loons. I'm all ears. Really. Because frankly, I think you're frantically reaching for any conceivable explanation with which you might avoid the truth that's staring you right in the face.

_____________________________

Ever notice how fucking annoying most signatures are? - Yes, I do appreciate the irony.

(in reply to Edwynn)

Post #: 167

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 10:37:54 PM

Edwynn

Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

If you think that you are fooling anyone into thinking you have the least bit of genuine interest in such explanation, or rational discussion of any sort for that matter, you delude yourself greatly.

Your purpose is plain.

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 168

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/16/2011 11:50:07 PM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

No. I'm not. Because our society just isn't as violent as yours. Period.

Really? It's hard to find recent stats, but I did find this:
http://rechten.uvt.nl/icvs/pdffiles/ICVS2004_05.pdf
Page 43 (graph on page 44):

quote:

The four countries with the highest overall
prevalence victimisation rates in 2004 are Ireland, England & Wales, New
Zealand and Iceland3. Other countries with comparatively high victimisation
rates are Northern Ireland, Estonia, the Netherlands, Denmark,
Mexico, Switzerland and Belgium. All these countries have overall victimisation
rates that are statistically significantly higher than the average of
the 30 participating countries. The USA, Canada, Australia and Sweden
show rates near the average. Compared to past results, they have dropped
several places in the ranking on overall victimisation.

Page 285 (table) also has some interesting information. Less gun crime, true, but more 'contact' crime in Aus, NZ, and England/ Wales than in the US.

I also found this 2010 article, this 2009 article and this 2008 article on crime in Australia & NZ.
It certainly seems as if your society does have a problem with violent crime, despite your claims to the contrary.

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 169

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 12:08:09 AM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

Nice try. Nope, I'm as real a person as the next. My profile hasn't been hidden for two years or ever to my knowledge.
Gee where on the the forum would you suggest I turn in my gun and shield?
You know what? I think I'll keep em, wait the 4 1/2 months I have left to go and retire. My socks, by the way, are both blue.
<<<<smooch>>>>>

Might wanna check that profile, skippy. As for the rest; yeah, if you say so. People here tend to draw their own conclusions, and I'm good with that.

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to manatthewheel)

Post #: 170

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 12:11:53 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
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I can see his profile.

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Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 171

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 12:41:33 AM

DarqueMirror

Posts: 1262
Joined: 3/21/2011
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WyldHrt
It certainly seems as if your society does have a problem with violent crime, despite your claims to the contrary.

Ooooohhhhhh sick (true) burn!

Hope his fall from atop that high horse doesn't hurt too much.

< Message edited by DarqueMirror -- 5/17/2011 12:42:43 AM >

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 172

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 12:45:43 AM

Edwynn

Posts: 4105
Joined: 10/26/2008
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Awareness

Because our society just isn't as violent as yours. Period.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ass_vic-crime-assault-victims

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_tot_cri_vic-crime-total-victims

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita

Peace, brother.

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 173

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 12:55:32 AM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
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quote:

I can see his profile.

There now, but it wasn't when I posted.
ETA- 5'8", 440lbs, and a LEO... ok.

< Message edited by WyldHrt -- 5/17/2011 12:59:01 AM >

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 174

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 12:59:08 AM

tazzygirl

Posts: 37833
Joined: 10/12/2007
Status: offline

Ah, thought that might have been the case.

_____________________________

Telling me to take Midol wont help your butthurt.
RIP, my demon-child 5-16-11
Duchess of Dissent 1
Dont judge me because I sin differently than you.
If you want it sugar coated, dont ask me what i think! It would violate TOS.

(in reply to WyldHrt)

Post #: 175

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 1:05:04 AM

WyldHrt

Posts: 6412
Joined: 6/5/2008
Status: offline

quote:

Ah, thought that might have been the case.

_____________________________

"MotherFUCKER!" is NOT a safeword!!"- Steel
"We've had complaints about 'orgy noises'. This is not the neighborhood for that kind of thing"- PVE Cop

Resident "Hypnotic Eyes", "Cleavage" and "Toy Whore"
Subby Mafia, VAA Posse & Team Troll!

(in reply to tazzygirl)

Post #: 176

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 2:33:41 AM

Termyn8or

Posts: 18681
Joined: 11/12/2005
Status: offline

"Okay, when someone says "out of context" do you know what that means?"

I didn't make the statement. I didn't set the context. Your name was on it.

In what context was it that I unfairly clipped a statement that asserts that armed Citizens do not deter crime ? What possible context changed the meaning of those words, that my illiterate ass seems to have misconstrued ?

T^T

(in reply to Awareness)

Post #: 177

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 1:53:21 PM

Focus50

Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline

Sooooo, where's all the helpful links to US gun death statistics....? I threw it out there in an earlier post - speculated tens of thousands per annum and no-one jumped on me. Waaay less than a hundred per annum in Oz (pop 23 million). Or how about how many gun deaths in New York or LA per year as a comparison?

No-one is saying Australia or any other nation doesn't have its violent or criminal element. Our police are armed as well as having specialised response units with heavy weapons and tactics etc. 'Awareness' doesn't count - an (alleged) Aussie calling everyone "dude" is the kind of cultural cringe that makes me wish I still had a gun locker.... lol

But yanno, there are times I feel there's some sort of sick jealousy that the US doesn't hold the record for most killed in a mass murder - such as the 36 killed my Martin Bryant at Tasmania's Port Arthur. Ugh!

Focus.

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Your food is for eating, not torturing. <my mum> (Errm, when I was a kid)

(in reply to Termyn8or)

Post #: 178

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 2:15:21 PM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

But yanno, there are times I feel there's some sort of sick jealousy that the US doesn't hold the record for most killed in a mass murder - such as the 36 killed my Martin Bryant at Tasmania's Port Arthur. Ugh!

Focus.

I wonder if there is some sort of sick jealousy that you guys don't have a second amendment. Why do you care anyway ? If you're happy with the laws in Australia then I'm tickled plum to death. Where as we do seem to have a few problems with guns I would never want to curtail the right right to bear arms enumerated in our constitution. The guys that wrote and adopted the second amendment did not trust governments and did not want the government to have a monopoly on all the firepower. There are other things in the bill of rights that seem to be detrimental to crime such as rights laid out in the forth amendment. Would it not be so much easier to combat crime if only the police could search anyone at any time they wanted on a hunch, break down doors without a warrant, indiscriminately seize property ?

(in reply to Focus50)

Post #: 179

RE: Private firearms ownership saves another homeowner - 5/17/2011 2:22:52 PM

lovmuffin

Posts: 3759
Joined: 9/28/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: lovmuffin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Focus50

But yanno, there are times I feel there's some sort of sick jealousy that the US doesn't hold the record for most killed in a mass murder - such as the 36 killed my Martin Bryant at Tasmania's Port Arthur. Ugh!

Focus.

I wonder if there is some sort of sick jealousy that you guys don't have a second amendment. Why do you care anyway ? If you're happy with the laws in Australia then I'm tickled plum to death. Where as we do seem to have a few problems with guns I would never want to curtail the right right to bear arms enumerated in our constitution. The guys that wrote and adopted the second amendment did not trust governments and did not want the government to have a monopoly on all the firepower. There are other things in the bill of rights that seem to be detrimental to crime such as rights laid out in the forth amendment. Would it not be so much easier to combat crime if only the police could search anyone at any time they wanted on a hunch, break down doors without a warrant, indiscriminately seize property ?

OOPs...............seem *not* "to be detrimental to crime" would be more like it or even a better choice of words.

(in reply to lovmuffin)

Post #: 180

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