RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery

RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (Full Version)

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Real0ne -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 11:52:37 AM)
yes any attempt to help you understand the world beyond you is a pathetic waste of time

mnottertail -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 11:56:44 AM)
again, you simply need to offer credible proof that speaks to the subject under question to prove that your outlandish spouting of asswipe has a basis in fact, something which in the many years that you have been here, you have yet to do, even once. You never have.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 11:57:26 AM)
Louve, there are many versions of the Oath.... 3 are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath Then there is this used as a substitution ... The Oath of Maimonides is a document about the medical calling and recited as a substitute for the Oath of Hippocrates. The Oath is not to be confused with a more lengthy Prayer of Maimonides. These documents may not have been written by Maimonides, but later.[19] The Prayer appeared first in print in 1793 and has been attributed to Marcus Herz, a German physician, pupil of Immanuel Kant.[50] quote: The eternal providence has appointed me to watch over the life and health of Thy creatures. May the love for my art actuate me at all time; may neither avarice nor miserliness, nor thirst for glory or for a great reputation engage my mind; for the enemies of truth and philanthropy could easily deceive me and make me forgetful of my lofty aim of doing good to Thy children. May I never see in the patient anything but a fellow creature in pain. Grant me the strength, time and opportunity always to correct what I have acquired, always to extend its domain; for knowledge is immense and the spirit of man can extend indefinitely to enrich itself daily with new requirements. Today he can discover his errors of yesterday and tomorrow he can obtain a new light on what he thinks himself sure of today. Oh, God, Thou has appointed me to watch over the life and death of Thy creatures; here am I ready for my vocation and now I turn unto my calling." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath_of_Maimonides Not arguing your point in your post... just saying not all Physicians follow the same Oath.

Marc2b -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:19:08 PM)
I don't know much about Rand Paul, to me he is just another politician, and he may be exagerating a bit to get his point across but he is essentially correct. When you declare a product or service to be a right, you are essentially declaring that others MUST serve you. If I have a right to health care then other people MUST provide it. If I have a right to decent housing, then other people MUST provide it for me. That goes against the very idea of a free society. Now, before you bobble heads out there get your panties in a twist, this doesn't mean I think it is a bad idea for everyone to have access to health care (how we go about doing that is an argument I'll save for another day) but let's not be intellectually dishonest by calling it a right. If someone is providing you health care for free or even for less than cost, then it is a benefit. When you start labeling benefits as rights... well... witness the indignant, whiney, responses on this thread. Indignant, whiney citizens who believe that they are entitled to service provided by others does not make for a viable society.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:29:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Anyone who wants to keep parroting the "health care is not a right" meme needs to consider very carefully my situation. A year ago I got a kidney infection, cause unknown, that rendered my kidney snearly dead. By late summer I was forced onto dialysis. By the end of September my company's group plan dropped us, just before the law changed disallowing that sort of thing. I was of course uninsurable, my present dialysis clinic bills at just over 30k per month. Without Medicare I would literally be dead now. If health care is not a right would you care to donate your kidneys' to me and try paying for dialysis out of your own pocket? Your unfortunate personal circumstances dont make it a right, as much as you would like it to.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:30:53 PM)
Here is the problem. Cancer... best caught when early. Screening tests can be cheap.. blood work.. to extremely expensive... MRI's and such. No insurance means everything is paid out of pocket. Blood work can cost 500+ and up. Thats rent to a proverty level family. Drs visit for high bp... maybe 150 dollars. The cost of BP meds.... around 300 for a month with no prescription plan. Again, thats no small amount from a family at proverty level. No one is asking for free care. I would not expect someone who went to medical school to give me, free of charge, what he does for a living. But there has GOT to be some way to meet in the middle.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:31:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Marc2b I don't know much about Rand Paul, to me he is just another politician, and he may be exagerating a bit to get his point across but he is essentially correct. When you declare a product or service to be a right, you are essentially declaring that others MUST serve you. If I have a right to health care then other people MUST provide it. If I have a right to decent housing, then other people MUST provide it for me. That goes against the very idea of a free society. Now, before you bobble heads out there get your panties in a twist, this doesn't mean I think it is a bad idea for everyone to have access to health care (how we go about doing that is an argument I'll save for another day) but let's not be intellectually dishonest by calling it a right. If someone is providing you health care for free or even for less than cost, then it is a benefit. When you start labeling benefits as rights... well... witness the indignant, whiney, responses on this thread. Indignant, whiney citizens who believe that they are entitled to service provided by others does not make for a viable society. This. Rare agreement between us!

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:32:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tazzygirl Here is the problem. Cancer... best caught when early. Screening tests can be cheap.. blood work.. to extremely expensive... MRI's and such. No insurance means everything is paid out of pocket. Blood work can cost 500+ and up. Thats rent to a proverty level family. Drs visit for high bp... maybe 150 dollars. The cost of BP meds.... around 300 for a month with no prescription plan. Again, thats no small amount from a family at proverty level. No one is asking for free care. I would not expect someone who went to medical school to give me, free of charge, what he does for a living. But there has GOT to be some way to meet in the middle. There is. Its called the free market.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:35:13 PM)
No, its called the insurance market... the same market that cuts your paycheck.

mnottertail -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:35:37 PM)
Then we need to get one of those, cuz we aint got one.

Lucylastic -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:36:52 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Anyone who wants to keep parroting the "health care is not a right" meme needs to consider very carefully my situation. A year ago I got a kidney infection, cause unknown, that rendered my kidney snearly dead. By late summer I was forced onto dialysis. By the end of September my company's group plan dropped us, just before the law changed disallowing that sort of thing. I was of course uninsurable, my present dialysis clinic bills at just over 30k per month. Without Medicare I would literally be dead now. If health care is not a right would you care to donate your kidneys' to me and try paying for dialysis out of your own pocket? Your unfortunate personal circumstances dont make it a right, as much as you would like it to. unfortunate? its a fucking travesty.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:39:02 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Anyone who wants to keep parroting the "health care is not a right" meme needs to consider very carefully my situation. A year ago I got a kidney infection, cause unknown, that rendered my kidney snearly dead. By late summer I was forced onto dialysis. By the end of September my company's group plan dropped us, just before the law changed disallowing that sort of thing. I was of course uninsurable, my present dialysis clinic bills at just over 30k per month. Without Medicare I would literally be dead now. If health care is not a right would you care to donate your kidneys' to me and try paying for dialysis out of your own pocket? Your unfortunate personal circumstances dont make it a right, as much as you would like it to. unfortunate? its a fucking travesty. Paint it whatever color you want, it still doesnt make it a fucking right!

Lucylastic -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:41:37 PM)
It does here, it does in my home country, so , yanno, I tend to think that it should be. It could be. its a fucking disgusting , murdering travesty You are part of the problem so of course you want it the way it is

DomKen -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:42:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Anyone who wants to keep parroting the "health care is not a right" meme needs to consider very carefully my situation. A year ago I got a kidney infection, cause unknown, that rendered my kidney snearly dead. By late summer I was forced onto dialysis. By the end of September my company's group plan dropped us, just before the law changed disallowing that sort of thing. I was of course uninsurable, my present dialysis clinic bills at just over 30k per month. Without Medicare I would literally be dead now. If health care is not a right would you care to donate your kidneys' to me and try paying for dialysis out of your own pocket? Your unfortunate personal circumstances dont make it a right, as much as you would like it to. You'll be donating your kidneys to me and giving dialysis a try out of pocket then?

Marc2b -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:43:13 PM)
quote: Here is the problem. Cancer... best caught when early. Screening tests can be cheap.. blood work.. to extremely expensive... MRI's and such. No insurance means everything is paid out of pocket. Blood work can cost 500+ and up. Thats rent to a proverty level family. Drs visit for high bp... maybe 150 dollars. The cost of BP meds.... around 300 for a month with no prescription plan. Again, thats no small amount from a family at proverty level. No one is asking for free care. I would not expect someone who went to medical school to give me, free of charge, what he does for a living. But there has GOT to be some way to meet in the middle. Again, I am not saying that we don't need to reform our health care system so that people can have better access to it... only that it should not be considered a right.

Marc2b -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:44:18 PM)
quote: This. Rare agreement between us! Don't let it go to your head.

tazzygirl -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 12:45:17 PM)
If its not a right, its a privilege. Which is health care to you? Come on gentlemen and ladies. Its not that hard a question. Is healthcare a right, that you should get it in order to live? Or is it a privilege, and if you cant afford it, you should die?

Marc2b -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 1:02:28 PM)
quote: If its not a right, its a privilege. Which is health care to you? Health care is not a right nor is it a privilege... it is a product (eg medicine) and a service (eg surgery). Because it is a product and a service it is subject to market forces. No legislation, no matter how well intentioned, can make it otherwise. Reality doesn't give a shit what our intentions are. If I am receiving health care for less than the cost borne out by market forces then someone else is making it up somewhere. Thus it is a benefit. I am not against the general principle of collective action to provide certain BENEFITS that I can not obtain myself (eg defense, I can't track and "take out" terrorists all by my lonesome, so I pay taxes along with others to provide a common defense). That's the whole idea behind a society, but if we want to do this with health care, we can argue about the best way to go about it... but let's not call it a right. Leading people into thinking that they are entitled to the fruits of other people's labor by mere virture of their birth clouds the issue. Instead of actually debating the pros and cons of various strategies, we end up screeching at each other about what horrible people we are. ETA this: quote: Or is it a privilege, and if you cant afford it, you should die? This is exactly what I am talking about. Because you've accepted the notion that health care is a right you have locked yourself into an either/or mode of thinking in which anyone who is not with you must be against you... and therefore is a horrible person who is okay with letting people die.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 1:04:16 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic It does here, it does in my home country, Wrong. What makes provides it in your country is a LAW, which has nothing to do with whether its a "right" or not.

willbeurdaddy -> RE: Sen. Rand Paul: Right To Health Care Like Believing In Slavery (5/13/2011 1:05:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen quote: ORIGINAL: willbeurdaddy quote: ORIGINAL: DomKen FR Anyone who wants to keep parroting the "health care is not a right" meme needs to consider very carefully my situation. A year ago I got a kidney infection, cause unknown, that rendered my kidney snearly dead. By late summer I was forced onto dialysis. By the end of September my company's group plan dropped us, just before the law changed disallowing that sort of thing. I was of course uninsurable, my present dialysis clinic bills at just over 30k per month. Without Medicare I would literally be dead now. If health care is not a right would you care to donate your kidneys' to me and try paying for dialysis out of your own pocket? Your unfortunate personal circumstances dont make it a right, as much as you would like it to. You'll be donating your kidneys to me and giving dialysis a try out of pocket then? Your logic is ass backwards as always. IF it were a right you might have a claim to a transplant or dialysis, since it isnt, you dont.

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