RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms

RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (Full Version)

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KenDckey -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 9:50:37 AM)
if he is asking about you, then fine. He needs that info possibly based upon the scrpit he is writing. I have drugs that I take for my conditions that preclude alcohol consumption. I have asthma so tobacco use is relavent. I am in pain all the time so drug usage is relavent (my typed script list is 2 pages long). I guess my quesiton for you, is when is the last time the doc asked you(or your kid) what you did with your caustic chemicals because it was a safety issue? Although I have no sources to quote, I believe that the incidents of children eating caustic chemicals is far greater than children being injured by weapons.

Hillwilliam -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 9:51:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Lucylastic quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey velocity is a factor but that isn't the point. Why isn't the doctor asking about other objects in the home? If the justification for the question is safety, they why not go thru everything? He would need to know about knives, forks, skillets, oils, chemicals, when the last time the wall outlets were changed in accordance with code, etc That is because it isn't his business. Same with guns. Guns only have one purpose targets? I mean that's what 99+% of all bullets are used for.

thishereboi -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 9:53:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi Being overweight has been proven to cause diabetes, smoking has been proved to cause emphysema and fatty foods lead to heart attack. Just being in the house with a gun doesn't cause anything, unless of course you are allergic to lead and suck on the bullets. See the difference? Being overweight has been proven to cause diabetes, smoking has been proved to cause emphysema and fatty foods lead to heart attack. Just being in the house with a gun doesn't cause anything, unless of course, a 5 year old finds one, and points it at a 3 year old. That has been proven to cause death, too. See the LACK OF a difference? A 5 year old can pull a pot of boiling water off the stove and kill himself. What's your point. Maybe the docs should start asking if mom cooks?

angelikaJ -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 9:54:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey They can be concerned if they want, why aren't the asking about how mom and dad store their caustics (and other hazardous materials) and hazardous impliments? The list of hazards is way to long to ask about. So they pick on one issue that has been determined to be allowed according to the constitution. Isn't that profiling? The safety in the home concern is not one class of items, but the whole picture or it is invalidated. Usually hospitals give parents tips on childproofing and most pediatricians have handouts on caustics. You are making the assumption that these topics never came up as a part of his preventative medicine, when in fact you don't know if that is the case or not. We already know he asks about swimming pools, a frequent cause of accidental drowning incidents. Do you find that to be objectionable too? As far as we know no one has made a complaint about the intrusiveness of that query. Who knows what else he has asked about that other reasonable people never thought to object to?

EternalHoH -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:10:45 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Although I believe it does not violate the constitution for the doctor to ask, I also don't believe that he has a right to know. For the purposes of pediatric care, he does not have a right to know if the parents keep guns in their house. He can ask, and the parents can refuse to answer. Thats what should have happened here, except the woman took exception to 'feeling bad'. The doctor does have a right to know if the parents carry guns onto his private property, into his office building. The doctor does have the right to control his private property, and institute a 'no guns on premises' rule if he so desires. If the patient disagrees, they can stay home (and off his property), or find another doctor. Once they set foot inside the front door of his office, the patient is now governed by the doctor's rules. But because this woman 'felt bad', the NRA got involved, and now, private property owners in Florida have a less control over their private property. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey To me, this is the first step in saying that all gun owners are unfit parents. I'm sure if there is any evaluation of parental fitness and/or patient suitability going on, its not just over a gun. Only the 'second amendment paranoids' would think that a gun drives everything. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey So they pick on one issue that has been determined to be allowed according to the constitution. Isn't that profiling? For all we know, the receptionist may have spotted a gun in her purse when the woman grabbed her wallet or insurance cards. If the doc had a no-carry policy on his property, and she violated that, it would explain the gun-as-conversation and the booting. There are plenty of possible reasons, unknown to us, before we ever land on 'profiling'.

KenDckey -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:12:00 AM)
Hmmmmmm an incomplete list of tips (I have seen and recieved them). So we single out guns to ask about. A 4 month old that has a weapon in the house. The child wasn't involved in a gun related illness. Can't crawl, much less do much else with a gun. The doc didn't ask about other things on the list, the only possible conclusion is that he is planning something that has nothing to do with the illness of the child. if 3.5% of ALL healthcare dollars are spent on children's exposure to environmental toxins as stated at http://www.emaxhealth.com/1020/environmental-toxins-cost-kids-health-billions-health-dollars then wouldn't the doctor be more concerned about the child getting into the household chemicals? What does weapons ownership, the question, have to do with the child's illness? Again, nothing unless the child was injured by one of those weapons.

EternalHoH -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:14:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thishereboi A 5 year old can pull a pot of boiling water off the stove and kill himself. What's your point. Maybe the docs should start asking if mom cooks? My point is.... I will let the doctors decide for themselves what home safety issues be concerned about, based on the cases they see. What topics are discussed is not up to me. Nor it is up to you. Nor is it up to a state legislature. Neither of us stand in their shoes.

Tantriqu -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:22:01 AM)
Guns arent' 'singled out': ensuring guns and ammo are locked away and separately and out of sight and mind of kids and the mentally ill is part of it, like putting plugs in electrical outlets and using carseats, and a good doc SHOULD ask. It's a pediatrician's job to decrease preventable deaths: cops do the same thing when they see uncapped needles and empty fridges: keep the kids, who have no choice about their home, safe.

a49015Dom4subF -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:23:47 AM)
Just for the sake of the conversation, what exactly happens if the Dr asks you and you say Why yes, I do have guns. Then what?

angelikaJ -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:24:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Although I believe it does not violate the constitution for the doctor to ask, I also don't believe that he has a right to know. For the purposes of pediatric care, he does not have a right to know if the parents keep guns in their house. He can ask, and the parents can refuse to answer. Thats what should have happened here, except the woman took exception to 'feeling bad'. The doctor does have a right to know if the parents carry guns onto his private property, into his office building. The doctor does have the right to control his private property, and institute a 'no guns on premises' rule if he so desires. If the patient disagrees, they can stay home (and off his property), or find another doctor. Once they set foot inside the front door of his office, the patient is now governed by the doctor's rules. But because this woman 'felt bad', the NRA got involved, and now, private property owners in Florida have a less control over their private property. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey To me, this is the first step in saying that all gun owners are unfit parents. I'm sure if there is any evaluation of parental fitness and/or patient suitability going on, its not just over a gun. Only the 'second amendment paranoids' would think that a gun drives everything. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey So they pick on one issue that has been determined to be allowed according to the constitution. Isn't that profiling? For all we know, the receptionist may have spotted a gun in her purse when the woman grabbed her wallet or insurance cards. If the doc had a no-carry policy on his property, and she violated that, it would explain the gun-as-conversation and the booting. There are plenty of possible reasons, unknown to us, before we ever land on 'profiling'. There are some very big extrapolations being made here. He asked a question. It was a routine question, something he hasbeen asking the last couple of years. There is nothing to suggest she was carrying, nor was there anything to suggest that he believed gun owners to be unfit parents. Okonkwo told the Star-Banner he asked Ullman about whether she had a gun in her home because of the safety of her children, and told her so. He said he asks such questions of all his patients so he can advise parents to lock their guns away from children. "I don't tell them to get rid of the guns," he said. "The purpose is to give advice." He said that more than half the families he treats have guns.

a49015Dom4subF -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:32:29 AM)
For the safety of the children? I see, so as a Dr. he is licensed to dispense medical advice, where is his qualification in risk mitigation that would make it possible for him to dispense safety advice?

angelikaJ -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:34:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: a49015Dom4subF Just for the sake of the conversation, what exactly happens if the Dr asks you and you say Why yes, I do have guns. Then what? Then according to the article the pediatrician mentioned: " ...he asks such questions of all his patients so he can advise parents to lock their guns away from children." Just the way he reminds people to keep the gate to their swimming pool locked (and probably to have an alarm).

KenDckey -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:39:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey Although I believe it does not violate the constitution for the doctor to ask, I also don't believe that he has a right to know. For the purposes of pediatric care, he does not have a right to know if the parents keep guns in their house. He can ask, and the parents can refuse to answer. Thats what should have happened here, except the woman took exception to 'feeling bad'. The doctor does have a right to know if the parents carry guns onto his private property, into his office building. The doctor does have the right to control his private property, and institute a 'no guns on premises' rule if he so desires. If the patient disagrees, they can stay home (and off his property), or find another doctor. Once they set foot inside the front door of his office, the patient is now governed by the doctor's rules. But because this woman 'felt bad', the NRA got involved, and now, private property owners in Florida have a less control over their private property. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey To me, this is the first step in saying that all gun owners are unfit parents. I'm sure if there is any evaluation of parental fitness and/or patient suitability going on, its not just over a gun. Only the 'second amendment paranoids' would think that a gun drives everything. quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey So they pick on one issue that has been determined to be allowed according to the constitution. Isn't that profiling? For all we know, the receptionist may have spotted a gun in her purse when the woman grabbed her wallet or insurance cards. If the doc had a no-carry policy on his property, and she violated that, it would explain the gun-as-conversation and the booting. There are plenty of possible reasons, unknown to us, before we ever land on 'profiling'. There are some very big extrapolations being made here. He asked a question. It was a routine question, something he hasbeen asking the last couple of years. There is nothing to suggest she was carrying, nor was there anything to suggest that he believed gun owners to be unfit parents. Okonkwo told the Star-Banner he asked Ullman about whether she had a gun in her home because of the safety of her children, and told her so. He said he asks such questions of all his patients so he can advise parents to lock their guns away from children. "I don't tell them to get rid of the guns," he said. "The purpose is to give advice." He said that more than half the families he treats have guns. So his is maintaining statistics. hmmmmmmm

Termyn8or -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:42:29 AM)
"I don't see it as any more intrusive than my doctor asking me about my drinking habits tobacco or drug usage." I disagree. I think it is a different issue. It's like when the insurance companies lobbied to get seat belt laws passed. It's an infringement. T^T

angelikaJ -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:46:19 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: a49015Dom4subF For the safety of the children? I see, so as a Dr. he is licensed to dispense medical advice, where is his qualification in risk mitigation that would make it possible for him to dispense safety advice? The American Association of Pediatrics believes that gun safety is a public health issue. As someone who has the ability to comprehend the physics involved in a collision between a speeding bullet and a childs body and the preventable damage that can occur, I believe they are correct. You are entitled to a different opinion. No one in the story was trying to take away guns; just remind people that guns should be locked away from kids.

KenDckey -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:49:42 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL:http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001/1402/NEWS?Title=Family-and-pediatrician-tangle-over-gun-question&tc=ar Do you keep a gun in the house?When the 26-year-old Summerfield woman refused to answer, the Ocala doctor finished her child's examination and told her she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician and that she wasn't welcome at Children's Health of Ocala anymore. Looks like they are denying healthcare to the child until s/he turns 18. Nice. Wonder what Obama has to say about that.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:53:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EternalHoH I suspect this is the original confrontation that spawned the whole bruhaha. http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001/1402/NEWS?Title=Family-and-pediatrician-tangle-over-gun-question Apparently, the doctor dropped the family when the woman refused to answer. So the Florida legislature decided to enslave their pediatricians, forcing them to serve patients. Hillbillies and their education levels strike again. All the while, China kicks our educational ass. No need to put down all hillbillies because of your anger about this case. Hillbillies are some good folks.

JstAnotherSub -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 10:54:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: angelikaJ DarkSteven, His asking makes perfect sense to me for the reason he mentioned: safety. My doctor asks about my alcohol consumption and tobacco usage. How is this any different? Her advice on alcohol consumption might vary dependent on my medical conditions and the medications I might be on. The advice regarding firearms and children or swimming pool and kids is not going to change. These are well known safety issues. Edit: The doctor's point about why he dropped them is not unreasonable. "Okonkwo said the issue was not about whether the parents owned a gun. He said the doctor and patient have to develop a relationship of trust and that if parents won't answer such basic safety questions, they cannot trust each other about more important health issues." I am sure her attitude of being combative did not help. What she said!

tazzygirl -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 11:27:50 AM)
quote: I guess my quesiton for you, is when is the last time the doc asked you(or your kid) what you did with your caustic chemicals because it was a safety issue? As a L&D nurse, I asked all the time, so did the OBGYN and the Newborn Nursery nurses, and the Pediatricians... gasp... Have a home visit from Social Services, they will be checking as well. Just because someone asks doesn't mean they are taking away a right. Ever consider that some Drs are just sick of getting called in on a Friday or Saturday night to watch another patient die from a gun shot that could have been prevented if mommy/daddy had simply locked them away?

tazzygirl -> RE: Pediatricians and NRA clash over asking patients about firearms (5/15/2011 11:36:23 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KenDckey quote: ORIGINAL:http://www.ocala.com/article/20100724/ARTICLES/7241001/1402/NEWS?Title=Family-and-pediatrician-tangle-over-gun-question&tc=ar Do you keep a gun in the house?When the 26-year-old Summerfield woman refused to answer, the Ocala doctor finished her child's examination and told her she had 30 days to find a new pediatrician and that she wasn't welcome at Children's Health of Ocala anymore. Looks like they are denying healthcare to the child until s/he turns 18. Nice. Wonder what Obama has to say about that. One Dr is refusing. You cant force a physician to take care of you. I took my son to a practice with 4 pediatricians. I also took him to a specialist who determined that if he didn't have one procedure, he could not have another he desperately needed. When one of the pediatricians found out, he refused to see my son as a patient anymore. They have that right. quote: "I want to let parents know that there could be consequences if you refuse to answer a question that you feel is private," she said. "Now my children have to suffer because of this and that's not right." Lets put this into perspective. Mommy felt the question was too invasive. Dr wanted to know to give tips. Mommy called Daddy who wants to hire a lawyer. IF mommy feels the Dr who is now refusing to take care of her child is that damn good that his lack of care will affect her child's health, then maybe she should have answered the damn question. Personally, there are a rare few Drs I have worked with that I felt were ever that good.

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