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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/15/2011 6:39:53 PM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania

quote:

ORIGINAL: WantsOfTheFlesh
~FR~

India isn't primarily Islamic nation although it has a large Islamic minority so it can't really be said Muslims are responding to the problem if a law is being brought in, some might be of course but the legislature is principally a Hindu one.

Actually, Muslims are not the only people who commit honor killings in India... it actually is much more complicated than that... here is an article on Hindu honor killings... which i did not know why I didn't think about this angle on the topic before, because I had heard of hindu women being killed in "household accidents" rather than being returned to their family if a marriage didn't work, negating the dowry, etc...

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1991195,00.html

Good point. I recall hearing some very nasty stories about women burnt to death over dowries. Punjab province is reputed to be the worst, with other provinces having almost no honour killings. Its worth pointing out though that the rate of these incidents amongst Hindu's is much lower. Neighbouring Pakistan is shocking with thousands killed each year!

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/15/2011 6:45:10 PM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Actually, Muslims are not the only people who commit honor killings in India... it actually is much more complicated than that... here is an article on Hindu honor killings...

That is interesting, but this thread is not about Hindu honor murders - which appear to happen for other reasons.

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Post #: 82

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/15/2011 6:50:03 PM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
Actually, Muslims are not the only people who commit honor killings in India... it actually is much more complicated than that... here is an article on Hindu honor killings...

That is interesting, but this thread is not about Hindu honor murders - which appear to happen for other reasons.

Oh no, we wouldn't want to stop bashing on Muslims now, would we?

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Post #: 83

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/15/2011 6:57:07 PM

cpK69

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thishereboi

Ok, I have to ask. How does killing your kid equate to pride or honor for that matter? They are two
sick fuckers who never should have been allowed kids in the first place.

Believing I have a right to kill my kid, because what they believe isn’t what I want them to believe, is arrogant/pride.

Believing that their choice of belief shames me, is self-importance/pride.

My issue with using the word ‘honor’ is that it is viewed as being relative to ‘honorable’, which implies a person is aliened with truth. Claiming to be honorable could be considered conceit/pride, as it is the assumption that my perception is truth.

...make sense?

Kim

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Post #: 84

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 12:04:34 AM

tweakabelle

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Thank you juliaoceania for pointing out a simple fact that makes the OP look as ridiculous as it is.

Yes people, India is overwhelmingly Hindu (something in excess of 80% of Indians are Hindus). The obnoxious 'honour killings' are carried out in the main by Hindus. Common reasons include marriage outside of caste, or insufficient dowry payments. Caste is an almost exclusively Hindu phenomenon. Sikhs also engage in the practice (of 'honour killings') and wiki tells us that the worst levels of honour killings are in the Punjab, where Sikhs are concentrated. (The Punjab also has large populations of Hindus and Muslims)

To claim or imply that so-called 'honour killings' are a monopoly of any one religion is absurd. All it does is demonstrate gross ignorance by the person advancing such a claim. And please don't think for a second that I am any fan or organised religion - I am not (as my posts in religious-themed threads will attest).

- 0 -

"In some other parts of India, notably West Bengal, honor killings ceased about a century ago, largely due to the activism and influence of reformists such as Vivekananda, Ramakrishna, Vidyasagar and Raja Ram Mohan Roy"*

That some areas of India have succeeded in eliminating 'honour killings' through social activism, despite having large Muslim populations, proves very clearly that it is not a monopoly of any one religion. Please note the exclusively Hindu names of the reformers named above. It is a cultural practice and the solutions are clearly cultural.

I can understand and appreciate people's outrage at this horrific practice. But that's no excuse for jumping to conclusions in the absence of any understanding of local culture. Julia's point - that we need to understand such barbaric practices in the light of the prevailing local culture - is pertinent. Failure to do this ensures efforts will fail due to failure to identify the correct targets and solutions.

If we want to stop such barbarism, it's best to understand it first so that effort can be directed productively at the correct target(s). Using it as an excuse to incite Islamophobia, as the OP does, is an insult to the memory of the many thousands of non-Muslim victims.

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honor_killings#India

< Message edited by tweakabelle -- 5/16/2011 12:21:34 AM >

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 1:56:48 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Thank you juliaoceania for pointing out a simple fact that makes the OP look as ridiculous as it is.

All the OP says is:

quote:

The fuckers are crazy.

Myself I have argued in my post 83:

quote:

In Islamic culture these women are not self serving lunatics, but sane, normal people who behaved honorably.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
To claim or imply that so-called 'honour killings' are a monopoly of any one religion is absurd.

Who made or implied any such assertion?

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
The obnoxious 'honour killings' are carried out in the main by Hindus. Common reasons include marriage outside of caste, or insufficient dowry payments. Caste is an almost exclusively Hindu phenomenon. Sikhs also engage in the practice (of 'honour killings') and wiki tells us that the worst levels of honour killings are in the Punjab, where Sikhs are concentrated. (The Punjab also has large populations of Hindus and Muslims)

This thread is not about Hindus nor Sikhs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
Julia's point - that we need to understand such barbaric practices in the light of the prevailing local culture - is pertinent. Failure to do this ensures efforts will fail due to failure to identify the correct targets and solutions.

Honor murders have various causes, depending on population characteristics. By dragging all of these populations into one bag of honor murders, you are obfuscating the specific cause of each culturally determined and institutionalized practice of honor murders. The variant under discussion in this thread is honor murders as committed by Muslims.

If you want to discuss honor murders as committed by Sikhs, then start a thread with that subject.

If you want to discuss honor murders as committed by Hindus, then start a thread with that subject.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tweakabelle
If we want to stop such barbarism, it's best to understand it first so that effort can be directed productively at the correct target(s). Using it as an excuse to incite Islamophobia, as the OP does, is an insult to the memory of the many thousands of non-Muslim victims.

I do not see any Islamophobia in the OP. The opening poster observed a reprehensible practice that is endemic in most of the Islamic populations. Thanks to him noticing that practice it can be addressed and discussed and perchance ended. If he had failed to alert people it would never have been addressed and discussed let alone be ended as a possible result of the discussion.

Thus, on the contrary, by accusing the opening poster of Islamophobia, you are thwarting the addressing and discussion of this reprehensible practice and therefore become yourself an accomplice in all past, present and future such murders.

< Message edited by Rule -- 5/16/2011 2:48:00 AM >

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Post #: 86

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 2:41:57 AM

Moonhead

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule
I do not see any Islamophobia in the OP.

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 6:38:19 AM

thishereboi

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Yea, I think I understand now. Thanks

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 6:55:08 AM

cpK69

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Glad you asked. : )

Kim

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Post #: 89

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 7:09:42 AM

juliaoceania

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Thank you tweakabelle, you made several salient points

Edited to add, I understand why the practice upsets domiguy so much, but it is incorrect to attribute this sort of barbaric behavior to one religion or one people

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/16/2011 7:11:20 AM >

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Post #: 90

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:10:26 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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~FR~

Julia and Tweakbelle are right to point out that the killing of women in Hindu society in India is a major problem. I was one of those who said Islam has a monopoly on honor killing. I didn’t mean that it is exclusively Islamic but I still say that it is a serious issue in Islamic society. As Julia said murder is murder and abhorrent in all cases but it is also useful to know the motivation to understand the nature of the crime. From what I read it appears that most of the killings in Hindu society is due to dowries. It is extreme violence caused by greed. It’s a crime driven by economics so I think it’s similar to other criminal activities involving money even if its particularly ugly as it involves marriage and violence specifically against women. I read that honour killings are due more to perceived immorality which will bring shame on other members of the family or husband’s family. It often involves a planned murder by other members of one or both of those families. That’s why I see it as even more repugnant because the girl is victimised by those that should love her most, that she trusts the most. Often girls that fled the home return with the pleading of parents only to be murdered often with shocking savagery. They are often dismembered. I think that’s why some people object so much. It’s a supreme betrayal and its done with great pride. It is perhaps the best example of the supreme depravity that religious “morality” can cause. I can honestly say I would not care which faith did this. In fact I would probably object even more strenuously if it were Christians because it is closer to home. This problem is found throughout the Islamic world (Pakistan has up to 10,000 killings per annum) and is exported to places where Muslims are a minority while outside India Hindu and Sikh honor killings are rare.

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:21:44 AM

juliaoceania

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I have no issue with pointing out that in a certain area there are human rights abuses going on. I have no trouble with pointing out how cultural factors help to promote human rights abuses. My issue with many of the responses to this thread is it appears to be a way to say "We are so much better than 'those' people because we are not as barbaric, we are civilized... etc etc etc.

Violence against women is a GLOBAL problem, and it is one that we have a great deal of trouble addressing ourselves. I think individually, people love the women in their families, value their daughters and wives on the whole. Many men in the Middle East want their daughters to have an education, more freedom, etc, yet they live in fear of hardliners. In Afghanistan, for example, people live in fear of allowing their daughters any freedom, not because they do not want them to have any, but they fear that this will put their daughters at risk.

When we reduce violence against women to something that other people do, we miss the opportunity to have a discussion about what is going on in our own neighborhoods to women we personally know. We also sound very hypocritical. Lets face it, we have little control over what people in India do, we have much more influence about what is going on next door. I am not saying we shouldn't care about honor killings, what I am saying is that there is plenty to get outraged about in our own neighborhoods. For example, if you live in a city with massage parlors, there are probably literal sex slaves in your community. Women without a choice forced to sell sex for money to our sons, brothers, fathers, and husbands.... clean up your own backyard before you even attempt to try to clean someone else's... be an example.

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Post #: 92

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:26:52 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
we miss the opportunity to have a discussion about what is going on in our own neighborhoods to women we personally know.
...
we have much more influence about what is going on next door.
...
there is plenty to get outraged about in our own neighborhoods.

So do start another thread directed towards that subject.

(in reply to juliaoceania)

Post #: 93

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:29:53 AM

juliaoceania

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rule

quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
we miss the opportunity to have a discussion about what is going on in our own neighborhoods to women we personally know.
...
we have much more influence about what is going on next door.
...
there is plenty to get outraged about in our own neighborhoods.

So do start another thread directed towards that subject.

Guess what, you do not get to police how we discuss the topic at hand. It is no way off topic to point out that Muslims are not the people who have violence against women... if you have an issue with me not being "topical" take it up with the mods and ask them if I am thread jacking, because unless and until they tell me I am, I will post what I fucking please.

If you do not like my points, you are always free to ignore them.

< Message edited by juliaoceania -- 5/16/2011 8:32:17 AM >

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Post #: 94

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:35:26 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
I have no issue with pointing out that in a certain area there are human rights abuses going on. I have no trouble with pointing out how cultural factors help to promote human rights abuses. My issue with many of the responses to this thread is it appears to be a way to say "We are so much better than 'those' people because we are not as barbaric, we are civilized... etc etc etc.

Violence against women is a GLOBAL problem, and it is one that we have a great deal of trouble addressing ourselves. I think individually, people love the women in their families, value their daughters and wives on the whole. Many men in the Middle East want their daughters to have an education, more freedom, etc, yet they live in fear of hardliners. In Afghanistan, for example, people live in fear of allowing their daughters any freedom, not because they do not want them to have any, but they fear that this will put their daughters at risk.

When we reduce violence against women to something that other people do, we miss the opportunity to have a discussion about what is going on in our own neighborhoods to women we personally know. We also sound very hypocritical. Lets face it, we have little control over what people in India do, we have much more influence about what is going on next door. I am not saying we shouldn't care about honor killings, what I am saying is that there is plenty to get outraged about in our own neighborhoods. For example, if you live in a city with massage parlors, there are probably literal sex slaves in your community. Women without a choice forced to sell sex for money to our sons, brothers, fathers, and husbands.... clean up your own backyard before you even attempt to try to clean someone else's... be an example.

Julia I don't think there was any suggestion the West is perfect or that we were being morally superior but I do think women are better treated over here. I assume there are problems here that are less of an issue in Islamic countries too. Traditional faith based societies have certain advantages. With the spead of multi-culturalism and a big shift in populations there is also an increase in honor killings in the West. While they are not at epidemic levels we should be concerned about them and express that concern without the implication that we care little about other issues relating to women.

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:39:49 AM

juliaoceania

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When you have a thread with the title "I do not want a Muslim mother", and the post articles about a couple of women who did something that MOST mothers would NOT do, and then reduce it to a "Muslim" cultural trait, well yes, I think this is a thread that sought to say "we are better than you"... it is reducing Muslim women all over the world into child murderers. It is saying that Muslim women do not love their daughters..... reread the first page of this thread, and then get back to me about this being a rational discussion of how to bring more human rights to a region of the world that needs it.... it was never intended to be that sort of discussion

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:55:10 AM

Rule

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
if you have an issue with me not being "topical" take it up with the mods

I am not going to take up anything with the mods. Them lot do not need my input.

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Post #: 97

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 8:55:22 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
When you have a thread with the title "I do not want a Muslim mother", and the post articles about a couple of women who did something that MOST mothers would NOT do, and then reduce it to a "Muslim" cultural trait, well yes, I think this is a thread that sought to say "we are better than you"... it is reducing Muslim women all over the world into child murderers. It is saying that Muslim women do not love their daughters..... reread the first page of this thread, and then get back to me about this being a rational discussion of how to bring more human rights to a region of the world that needs it.... it was never intended to be that sort of discussion

I don't think the thread starter did that. I don't think anyone in the thread said all muslim mothers were like this although the title sounded like that. It was undiplomatic to say the least but that's Domi's style - he takes potshots at most things, and the thread was pretty emotive but I see that as a natural reaction, being disgusted especially considering the close natural bond between mother and child. We differ in that I think it is a cultural trait (a cultural tendency but of course not something all Muslims accept) since it happens more in Islamic society. See http://www.gendercide.org/case_honour.html

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RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 9:14:16 AM

juliaoceania

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First of all, as teakabelle pointed out in her most articulate post on the subject, this is not a "MUSLIM" trait, this is something that happens in the region amongst Hindus as well. As she also pointed out, there are regions of India that have become more progressive and these sorts of things do not happen anymore, either.

I will also say that although I very much enjoy domiguy's style of posting much of the time, and I understand his revulsion at such practices, this thread for the first couple of pages did nothing to illuminate the cultural factors surrounding these crimes. It did nothing to support how we could further human rights in the region. It did nothing to illuminate how on the micro level there are people in the same region that would be as horrified as we are about this topic. It did nothing to illuminate any of these issues... the first page was, "muslim Indian women are sick fuckers".... now if you find this helpful in solving the problems women face globally, well we just differ on what we find illuminating, uplifting, and a path towards progressive change. Demonizing people has rarely worked as a way to get them to change.

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Post #: 99

RE: I do not want to have a Muslim mother. - 5/16/2011 9:30:09 AM

WantsOfTheFlesh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: juliaoceania
First of all, as teakabelle pointed out in her most articulate post on the subject, this is not a "MUSLIM" trait, this is something that happens in the region amongst Hindus as well. As she also pointed out, there are regions of India that have become more progressive and these sorts of things do not happen anymore, either.

We'll have to differ because I explained that many Hindu killings are not honor killings but more an issue of savage greed. Most honor killings have a different character being more a question of morality. I talked about that point in more detail in post 132 on the previous page I think.

quote:

I will also say that although I very much enjoy domiguy's style of posting much of the time, and I understand his revulsion at such practices, this thread for the first couple of pages did nothing to illuminate the cultural factors surrounding these crimes. It did nothing to support how we could further human rights in the region. It did nothing to illuminate how on the micro level there are people in the same region that would be as horrified as we are about this topic. It did nothing to illuminate any of these issues... the first page was, "muslim Indian women are sick fuckers".... now if you find this helpful in solving the problems women face globally, well we just differ on what we find illuminating, uplifting, and a path towards progressive change. Demonizing people has rarely worked as a way to get them to change.

Yes there were some harsh posts. I'm not excusing that but thats to be expected on most forums I reckon and would agree with little of what Rule says either. I agree that many muslims are horrified at the practice and a good few women campaign to have it stopped. I feel that free open and sincere discussion is what is needed first before anything good can happen. Very true that demonising don't help as you say but also it doesn't help for various other members to brand some people they disagree with as racist or whatever.

< Message edited by WantsOfTheFlesh -- 5/16/2011 9:35:14 AM >

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